7 replies to this topic

[Chaim613]

There is a philosophical argument to prove G-d exists based on an inherent sense of morality in people. The conclusion is that since the idea of certain built in moral character traits, there must have been a Supernal Bestower of basic morality.

Is this something that is found in sefarim?

What about, for example, the Gemara in Eruvin which says that had the Torah not been given, we would have learned modesty from the cat, not to steal from the ant, chastity from the dove, and manners from fowl....wouldn't we have picked up "right" and "wrong" from society or elsewhere that have been ingrained in our psyche over time....how is this a proof of G-d?

thank you,
Chaim

[Rabbi Shapiro]

I have never seen such a thing in a Sefer. And it does not make sense.

As far as the Techol and morals of society in general, please see this forum, in particular, my post of 3/24, and this audio Shiur.

[taon]

I have seen that before, it goes a little beyond what Chaim was saying. It had something to do with how certain values are constant even though so many others vary from place to place

[Rabbi Shapiro]

I hear. But still, why would that prove Hashem?

[Chaim613]

the fact that human beings have some instinctive moral conscience.....who put it there if not One who creates and defines morality? Most people believe that baseless hurting of other people is wrong.....without G-d there is no true morality. Even an atheist believes that murder is wrong, because it just IS.....but why would that be an ABSOLUTE thing without G-d?

[Chaim613]

anything close to this found in sefarim>?

[Rabbi Shapiro]

the fact that human beings have some instinctive moral conscience.....who put it there if not One who creates and defines morality? Most people believe that baseless hurting of other people is wrong.....without G-d there is no true morality. Even an atheist believes that murder is wrong, because it just IS.....but why would that be an ABSOLUTE thing without G-d?

Human instinct? All humans love their children. Does that prove G-d? Humans have lots of instincts. Maybe what you refer to as "morals" is something like a collective survival instinct for society? But even if I would have no idea how this instinct got there or why it is there, you can't just say it has to be G-d because nothing else makes sense - maybe it's something we don't know about yet. Once upon a time people thought lightning proved G-d because what else could it be? Process of elimination does not work unless you eliminate all the possibilities except one - but here we have no idea what other possibilities may be.

[Rabbi Shapiro]

anything close to this found in sefarim>?

No (except for Kiruv books). On the contrary - it says that the reason we feel instinctively that killing is wrong is because Istakel B'Oraysa Ubava Alma, meaning that because it says in the Torah Lo Sirtzach we have some vague echo of that in nature. But had the Torah said "Thou shalt kill," for example, our instincts would tell us that killing is good.

In any case, it does not make sense as a proof and I never saw such a thing in a Sefer.