9 replies to this topic

[mommy123]

How can both Bechira and Hashgacha Pratis exist? If something is from Hashem then how can we have bechira to choose otherwise? For example - if it was Hashgacha Pratis that Reuven should lose his job on a certain date, than how did Reuven's boss have Bechira whether or not to fire him?

[Rabbi Shapiro]

How can both Bechira and Hashgacha Pratis exist? If something is from Hashem then how can we have bechira to choose otherwise? For example - if it was Hashgacha Pratis that Reuven should lose his job on a certain date, than how did Reuven's boss have Bechira whether or not to fire him?

First, there is a Machlokes whether this is true. According to the Ohr HaChaim, which is based on the Zohar, the decisions of a Baal Bechirah can override Hashgacha Pratis in this sense. In other words, if it was originally destined for a person to keep his job, and someone exercised his Bechirah to fire the person, then that person will end up fired. In order for him to not be fired, Hashem would have to intervene with a much-greater-than-usual level of Hashgacha, which usually does not happen.

In context, he is talking about Yosef HaTzadik, who was thrown into a pit of snakes and scorpions in order to "test" to see whether Hashem wanted Yosef alive or not. The Ohr HaChaim asks, if the brothers wanted to see if Hashem would save Yosef, why did they have to throw him into a snake pit? Why couldn't they just stab him in the chest or hit him with a rock?

His answer is, had Yosef died because the brothers hit him with a rock, it would not have shown that Hashem wanted Yosef dead. Because even had Hashem wanted Yosef alive, because the brothers are Baalei Bechirah, they would have been able to kill Yosef even if Hashem's plan was for im to remain alive. A Baal Bechirah can override Hashem's original plan. But snakes and scoprions have no bechirah and they only bite someone when Hashem tells them to. The default level of Hashgacha employed by Hashem in this world can be overridden by Baalei Bechirah.

I explained this opinion here. We should understand this in a similar way that we understand the effects of a Makom Sakanah. If the default value of Hashem's world plan is that Reuven for example should live till 120, if Reuven hangs around in dangerous places, he may die prematurely, because once a Makom Sakanah is involved, the default level of Hashgacha that is used by Hashem to run the world can be overridden.

So too when a Baal Bechirah endangers someone, it is like a super Makom Sakanah. AN entirely new level of intervention is needed by Hashem in order to save this person.

Of course, Hashem can always save someone, even by turning his neck to stone. But that is rare. Usually a Baal Bechirah wins over everyday Hashgacha. As the Zohar says: זעירין אינון דניצלי מבעלי בחירה.

But not everyone holds like that. The Chovos Halevovs, just to name one, holds that if someone hurts you, that means there was a decree Min HaShamayim that you should be hurt. According to this opinion, your question works.

And the answer to your question is, even though there is a Gezeirah MinHaShamayim that Reuven should be killed, for example, there is no Gezeirah that Shimon should be the one to kill him. Shimon chooses to kill Reuven on his own.

But still, Shimon would be unable to kill Reuven unless Hashem allows him to succeed. he needs opportunity, motivation, and the convergence of countless factors that make Shimon ready, willing and able to kill his friend. Hashem provides Shimon with those factors, and Shimon provides one thing: The decision to commit the murder. Hashem knows Shimon chose to kill Reuven, or would choose to kill him under certain circumstances. For that decision, SHimon is a Rasha. If Hashem does not have mercy on the Rasha, He will allow him the circumstances, and sometimes even proactively provide him with the circumstamces, to carry out his Bechirah-decision to kill.

Sometimes, if Hashem's judgement deems it just, He will go out of His way to manipulate things in order to allow Shimon to kill Reuven, per the rules of בדרך שהאדם רוצה לילך מוליכין אותו and הבא לטמא פותחין לו. (See also Medrash Tanchuma Vayeshev 4 - Norah Alilah al Bnei Adam.)

Hashem may even manipulate events so that Shimon gets hurt because of Reuven so Shimon would have motive to kill him. He can also make them meet in a dark alley on a day when the local police force are on strike, and that Shimon happend to have just found a loaded gun on the street, all so that Shimon's Bechirah decision to kill Reuven will come to fruition. Hashem knows this will happen, but בדרך שהאדם רוצה לילך מוליכין אותו.

Shimon chooses to be a murderer. Reuven has a Gezeirah on him that he will be murdered. Hashem manipulates events so that the Rasha's decision comes to fruition.

If there would be nobody who chooses to kill Reuven, Hashem makes sure that there is. He can cause people to be born at certain times and in certain places, to go through certain life experiences, and have certain interactions with the intended victim. Hashem manipulates entire universes so that His plans will be actualized.

People make choices; Hashem takes those choices and makes His plans happen,

And now we have a new pshat in the posuk: רבות מחשבות בלב איש ועצת ה' היא תקום. Humans make choices and their Bechirah ends there. And Hashem uses those choices to manipulate events to ensure His plan comes to fruition.

[shaya]

if i jump into a lions den what makes the lion eat me alive? since he had no bechirah before i jumped in to eat me alive, what changed in the lion that allows him to harm me? the question is not why "I" will get eaten, but rather why will the "lion" be able to eat me? before i jumped in he couldn't do it cus he didn't have the "choice" to do so since he is locked up, but once i jump in what changes? he still has no bechirah? how did my action change for him to get the gzeira min hashamayim? did my action create a gezeira for his sake?

[Rabbi Shapiro]

Your action did in fact create a Gezeirah. Hashem runs the world, and when that lion attacked you, it was Hashem that told him "attack." But:

1) We are using the word "Gezeirah" a bit loosely here. Hashem has given us a way to predict with pretty good accuracy what He will cause to happen if you jump into a lion's den. It is called "Tevah." Tevah is a pattern of consistent Gezeiros that Hashem has chosen to use when running the world. When Hashem breaks the pattern, it is called a "Nes" (miracle). Tevah and Nes are equally the result of Hashem's decree, but Tevah follows the established, predictable pattern of decrees, and Nes is a deviation from that pattern.

In other words, if you jump into a lion's den, the lion will eat you. It's the way Hashem runs the world.

2) If you want to know at what point in time it was determined that the lion would eat you,the answer is, long before you were born. Hashem always knew that one day you would choose to jump into that lion's den and that the lion would eat you. The Gezeirah itself, of course, happens on Rosh Hashanah - מי יחיה ומי ימות. (However, see #4 below)

3) The Ramchal says that the reason people tend to get killed when they put themselves in a Sakanah is because it is an Aveirah to go into a place of Sakanah; the punishment for doing that Aveirah is that you end up in physical danger.

4) There is still the fundamental Machlokes that I mentioned in my previous post regarding whether a human endowed with Bechirah can harm someone if there is no Gezeirah from Shamayim that that person should be harmed. This probably applies as well to whether a person can kill himself if there was no Gezeirah from Shamayim that he should die. (I say "probably" because of Tosfos in Kesuvos 30a "Hakol." See Kovetz Maamraim vol. 1 p. 54.)

[Chaim613]

I recall a story involving R' Yonoson Eibshutz and a king. He was trying to explain to the king that bechira and yedia could co-exist, and told the king that he will tell him which gate he will enter in the city before he does. He wrote it down and sealed it on a piece of paper. The king approached the city and initially thought to go through the big main entranceway, but thought that R' Yonoson would have written that, so he went to the small one. When he approached the small one, he figured R' Yonoson probably thought he would make that move, and moved back to the big gate. He kept going back and forth until finally he ordered his guards to break down a wall and he went through that way. When he met up with R. Yonoson Eibshutz he opened the paper which read "melech poretz geder".

Do you happen to know the makor for this story?

thanks.

[Rabbi Shapiro]

The way I heard the story didn't have to do with explaining Yediah and Bechirah but that the king challenged Rav Yonason about Chazal's statement that a Torah scholar knows more than a prophet does - חכם עדיף מנביא. The king then challenged him to "predict" what door he would go through. I don't know the source of the story, but here it is the way I've heard it:
.
ומעשה היה עם רבי יונתן אייבשיץ שהמלך הזמינו לארמונו ואמר לו: שמעתי שעליך אומרים שחכם עדיף מנביא, ולכן אשאל אותך שאלה של חכמה שרק נביא יכול לדעת את פתרונה. אמר לו רבי יונתן: תשאל. אמר לו המלך: אני יוצא לציד מחוץ לשערי הממלכה, אמור לי דרך איזה שער אחזור לעיר. הבין רבי יונתן שהמלך רצה להפילו בפח, שכן דרך כל שער שיאמר לו, הוא יכנס בשער אחר ונמצאו דבריו מוכחשים, ועל כן אמר לו: אכתוב לך את התשובה על גבי דף שאותו נפקיד בידי שליש נאמן, וכשתחזור תפתח אותו, והסכים המלך לדבריו. כשחזר המלך לעירו, התלבט באיזה שער משערי העיר להכנס, שמא שמו של שער זה כתב החכם היהודי, ולא ידע מה לעשות. בא היועץ שלו ואמר לו שיפרוץ פרצה חדשה בחומה, ודרכה יכנס לעיר, ועל זה בודאי לא חשב הרב של היהודים, וכך ינצחו. נהנה המלך מההברקה של יועצו, והסכים לעשות כעצתו (להבדיל - ידוע, שבעיר העתיקה נפתח ויכוח בין המוסלמים לבין הנוצרים בדבר מיקומו של אלהיהם, אוי לאלוה כזה שקבור, ועל פי מסורתם הוא קבור מתחת לשער משערי חומות ירושלים, ומכיון שלא ידעו את השער המדויק, החליטו לפרוץ פרצה חדשה וקבעו את המעבר דרכו). כשהגיע לארמון, ביקש מאותו שליש לפתוח את המכתב העלום, וכשפתחו נדהם לראות כתוב (משנה בב"ק ק' ע"ב) "דרך המלך אין לה שיעור שהמלך פורץ גדר לעשות לו דרך ואין ממחין בידו". הבין רבי יונתן אייבשיץ שהמלך יהיה בדילמה, וחזה את המהלך הבלתי נמנע שירצה המלך להערים עליו ולפרוץ פרצה חדשה. אז הבין המלך שאין בכל החכמות כחכמת התורה והיא עדיפה מכל נבואה.
.
I would not believe that the story was intended to explain Yediah and Bechirah, unless it was just to outsmart a smart alecky-king. Because the story implies that the reason Hashem knows what people will choose is because He knows them so well that He can predict their future choices. But that won't explain how Hashem knows what people will choose even centuries before they are born, before they even have personalities (unless of course their personalities and thus their choices are already programmed into the DNA of their great grandparents, which in fact means the choices were made for people already before they were born and they indeed have no Bechirah).

If there is a way to look at the present - let's say when someone is 3 years old - and know for a fact every choice that person will make in the future - whether he will do Teshuva, and if so, exactly when, then that person has no Bechirah. In order for Bechirah to exist, a person cannot have pre-programmed DNA that locks in the decisions he will make.

So the story doesn't explain the Hashkafa correctly. Either Rav Yonason was just getting rid of a smart-alecky king's question, or the story is along the ines of the version I heard above.

[shaya]

His answer is, had Yosef died because the brothers hit him with a rock, it would not have shown that Hashem wanted Yosef dead. Because even had Hashem wanted Yosef alive, because the brothers are Baalei Bechirah, they would have been able to kill Yosef even if Hashem's plan was for im to remain alive. A Baal Bechirah can override Hashem's original plan. But snakes and scoprions have no bechirah and they only bite someone when Hashem tells them to. The default level of Hashgacha employed by Hashem in this world can be overridden by Baalei Bechirah.

if i throw some1 into a lions pit, or i throw a rock at him to kill him, how is this not both one and the same, its me "choosing" to harm some1, but you seem to make a difference between the 2.

in other words the rock/knife/gun, are all a bunch of lions, the gun, knife, rock, lion, snake, all have one thing in common, they are all NOT baalei bechirah, woudnt we say that the knife cannot do anything without hashem leting him do that?

so how did yosef's brothers choose one over the other?

הדרא קושיא לדוכתא

[taon]

To stop the knife would require a big, open neis, or for that person's bechira to changed by being prevented from acting out on their plan. Either way would need a large zechus. With the lion pit, they are still accomplishing their action, and it takes a lesser neis.

[AYidOnTheWayUp]

With regard to a humans Bechira affecting someone else who do we poskin like the Chovos Halevavos et al or the Ohr Hachaim Hakadosh...?

[Rabbi Shapiro]

I don't know that there is a psak in the sense that one of the opinions is rejected (see here regarding when and how we pasken Hashkafa questions). But I do know that the Satmar Rebbe ZTL in Vayoel Moshe - which he writes at the beginning is meant totally Halachah L'Maaseh - uses the Ohr HaChaim to explain actual historical events (why the Jews had no place to run during WWII even though Hashem promised them they always will - the answer is because the Zionists sabotaged rescue efforts, and the Ohr HaChaim's principle overrode the הבטחה), and also, Chacham Ovadiah uses the Ohr HaChaim to pasken a question הלכה למעשה regarding the Halachic authority of a גורל in his תשובות יביע אומר.

There are other places like this as well. Plus the two sides are not terribly difficult to reconcile. So while I do not see that one of the sides has been rejected, I do see that it is totally acceptable to apply the Ohr Hachaim in actual Halachic and Hashkafic practice.