In Hilchos Yesodei HaTorah 8:1, the Rambam says we don't believe in Moshe Rabeinu because of the osos performed, as one can claim the osos and nisim were performed through kishuf. Rather, our emunah in Moshe Rabeinu is because of maamad har sinai where we all saw and heard. Why can't the same question be asked regarding har sinai, that Moshe Rabeinu through some sort of kishuf c'v made the people think they saw and heard something?
Emunah in Moshe Rabeinu
Started by
mamash
, Nov 13 2011 10:42 PM
7 replies to this topic
#2
taon
-
- Moderators
-
- 421 posts
Moderator
Posted 14 November 2011 - 04:50 PM
Moshe went down before Hashem began the dibros so no one would think he was doing it, presumably it wouldn't be possible for him to have had the dibros coming from the top of the mountain while he was within view lower down. Also, I would imagine that the whole Har Sinai experience was beyond the bounds of kishuf, i don't think we have any mention of magic done at that scale.So Moshe would have gone lower down only to silence any possible complaint, perhaps.
#3
mamash
-
- Members
- 50 posts
Member
Posted 14 November 2011 - 06:00 PM
Moshe went down before Hashem began the dibros so no one would think he was doing it, presumably it wouldn't be possible for him to have had the dibros coming from the top of the mountain while he was within view lower down. Also, I would imagine that the whole Har Sinai experience was beyond the bounds of kishuf, i don't think we have any mention of magic done at that scale.So Moshe would have gone lower down only to silence any possible complaint, perhaps.
I'm sorry, I don't understand how that answers the question. If we are to assume that one could claim Moshe was the biggest magician, and that's how all the nisim prior to maamad har sinai happened, then why can't one similarly claim that har sinai was his greatest magic trick of all, where he made a voice come from nowhere?
I discussed this question a little with a rebbe of mine today. I think he was saying that ma'amad har sinai was something experienced within each and Jew implanted within the subconscious of each Jew. It's not that they saw and heard what Moshe showed them, they all experienced it equally, similar to nevuah.
#4
taon
-
- Moderators
-
- 421 posts
Moderator
Posted 14 November 2011 - 10:46 PM
Because just as there are limits to physical nature, there are limits to kishuf. You can't say that he was talented enough to pull everything off, it's just not within the realm of possibility. Same with kishuf, I think. It's not a question of greater kishuf, but going beyond the boundaries possible with kishuf. It just does not work that way.
#5
Rabbi Shapiro
-
- Administrators
-
- 1,423 posts
Member
Posted 14 November 2011 - 11:03 PM
Kishef works through the Kochos HaTumah and the Kochos HaTumah do not do anything against their own interest, such as reveal Torah to Klall Yisroel, command all Jews not to worship idols and to be loyal to Hashem. Therefore Kabbalas HaTorah could never have been the result of Kishef or the S"M. The objective of the Sitra Achra is to prevent Torah from being revealed in the world, not for it to be revealed.
In the Osef Igros U'Teudos of the Ramchal, there is a letter where the Ramchal defends himself against a charge leveled against him that the revelations of Torah that he received through apparitions of Avraham Avinu and Eliyahu HaNavi were most likely miracles from the Sitra Achra. The Ramchal responded that the fact that these apparitions taught authentic Torah proves that they were not miracles of the Sitra Achra, for the Sitra Achra would never reveal Torah - it is against his objectives.
The Divrei Yoel writes that the reason the plague of Dam was supposed to induce Paroh to let the Jews out of Egypt more than the previous miracles that Moshe produced (such as the Tzoraas), was because Paroh, an expert in manipulating the Kochos HaTumah himself, would not be impressed by any old miracle, for he would suspect that Moshe was using the Kochos HaTumah to make them, and that Hashem has no interest in freeing the Jews. But the plague of Dam struck the Nile, which was the Avodah Zorah of the Egyptians, and the Kochos HaTumah would never undermine an Avodah Zorah. That proved that Hashem was making the miracle, not the Sitra Achra.
Elsewhere he says this is why, of all the signs of Moshiach's arrivel, the Rambam paskens that the one sign that matters is that Moshiach will make Klall Yisroel do Teshuva. The reason: Other miraculous signs could have been produced by the Kochos HaTumah, but the Kochos HaTumah would never cause Jews to do Teshuva. So that sign must be legit.
And in yet a different place, the Divrei Yoel explains how the Bnei Efraim got out of Egypt early when they mistakenly thought the time for Geulah had arrived. Don't Chazal say, he asks, that nobody ever escaped Egypt? So how did the Bnie Efraim manage to leave?
His answer: The reason nobody was able to escape Egypt was because Kishef - Kochos HaTumah prevented anyone from escaping. But those same Kochos HaTumah gladly allowed the Bnei Efraim to leave, since it was a tremendous sin for them to do so, for which they were all killed in the desert r"l. The Bnei Efraim mistakenly thought their miraculous escape was a miracle from Hashem when in reality it was a miracle from the Kochos HaTumah. The Kochos HaTumah try to make sure Jews do the wrong thing. They will never contribute to Jews doing the right thing.
And so, the revelation of Kol HaTorah Kulah on Har Sinai, including Emunah in Hashem, as well as a prophetic sensory understanding of the highest level of understanding of G-d possible, could never have been produced via Kishef. The Kochos HaTumah would never do such a thing. It could only have been from Hashem.
PS - It's true that Kabbalas HaTorah was like a Nevuah kind of thing, but it is also true that Klall Yisroel physically saw the Kolos, as the Posuk describes.
See also here.
In the Osef Igros U'Teudos of the Ramchal, there is a letter where the Ramchal defends himself against a charge leveled against him that the revelations of Torah that he received through apparitions of Avraham Avinu and Eliyahu HaNavi were most likely miracles from the Sitra Achra. The Ramchal responded that the fact that these apparitions taught authentic Torah proves that they were not miracles of the Sitra Achra, for the Sitra Achra would never reveal Torah - it is against his objectives.
The Divrei Yoel writes that the reason the plague of Dam was supposed to induce Paroh to let the Jews out of Egypt more than the previous miracles that Moshe produced (such as the Tzoraas), was because Paroh, an expert in manipulating the Kochos HaTumah himself, would not be impressed by any old miracle, for he would suspect that Moshe was using the Kochos HaTumah to make them, and that Hashem has no interest in freeing the Jews. But the plague of Dam struck the Nile, which was the Avodah Zorah of the Egyptians, and the Kochos HaTumah would never undermine an Avodah Zorah. That proved that Hashem was making the miracle, not the Sitra Achra.
Elsewhere he says this is why, of all the signs of Moshiach's arrivel, the Rambam paskens that the one sign that matters is that Moshiach will make Klall Yisroel do Teshuva. The reason: Other miraculous signs could have been produced by the Kochos HaTumah, but the Kochos HaTumah would never cause Jews to do Teshuva. So that sign must be legit.
And in yet a different place, the Divrei Yoel explains how the Bnei Efraim got out of Egypt early when they mistakenly thought the time for Geulah had arrived. Don't Chazal say, he asks, that nobody ever escaped Egypt? So how did the Bnie Efraim manage to leave?
His answer: The reason nobody was able to escape Egypt was because Kishef - Kochos HaTumah prevented anyone from escaping. But those same Kochos HaTumah gladly allowed the Bnei Efraim to leave, since it was a tremendous sin for them to do so, for which they were all killed in the desert r"l. The Bnei Efraim mistakenly thought their miraculous escape was a miracle from Hashem when in reality it was a miracle from the Kochos HaTumah. The Kochos HaTumah try to make sure Jews do the wrong thing. They will never contribute to Jews doing the right thing.
And so, the revelation of Kol HaTorah Kulah on Har Sinai, including Emunah in Hashem, as well as a prophetic sensory understanding of the highest level of understanding of G-d possible, could never have been produced via Kishef. The Kochos HaTumah would never do such a thing. It could only have been from Hashem.
PS - It's true that Kabbalas HaTorah was like a Nevuah kind of thing, but it is also true that Klall Yisroel physically saw the Kolos, as the Posuk describes.
See also here.
#7
mamash
-
- Members
- 50 posts
Member
Posted 15 November 2011 - 01:26 PM
Rabbi Shapiro, I thought about your answer and have a couple of questions.
1) I understand the concept that the kochos hatumah don't work k'neged their interests, and therefore the giving of the Torah has to have been Hashem. But, if we're talking about giving an answer to someone who is claiming all the nissim happened through kishuf, couldn't he take the next step and agree that the kochos hatumah don't work kneged their interests but ask how do you know that the Torah we have is in fact Torah? Maybe it's the kochos hatumah tricking us c'v.
2) If the makah of dam is going k'neged the kochos hatumah and sitra achra, why wasn't that enough of a nes to convince everyone Moshe wasn't acting through kishuf?
3). The Rambam at the end of hilchos kochavim seems to say that kishuf isn't real altogether (I think the Gra understands the Rambam is saying this). If so, why does the Rambam here in yesodei hatorah say that the question of maybe the nisim happened through kishuf is a legitimate question?
1) I understand the concept that the kochos hatumah don't work k'neged their interests, and therefore the giving of the Torah has to have been Hashem. But, if we're talking about giving an answer to someone who is claiming all the nissim happened through kishuf, couldn't he take the next step and agree that the kochos hatumah don't work kneged their interests but ask how do you know that the Torah we have is in fact Torah? Maybe it's the kochos hatumah tricking us c'v.
2) If the makah of dam is going k'neged the kochos hatumah and sitra achra, why wasn't that enough of a nes to convince everyone Moshe wasn't acting through kishuf?
3). The Rambam at the end of hilchos kochavim seems to say that kishuf isn't real altogether (I think the Gra understands the Rambam is saying this). If so, why does the Rambam here in yesodei hatorah say that the question of maybe the nisim happened through kishuf is a legitimate question?
#8
Rabbi Shapiro
-
- Administrators
-
- 1,423 posts
Member
Posted 16 November 2011 - 08:27 AM
1) They knew the Torah was Torah the same way we do today - the same way the Ramchal's talmidim did. They had been learning Torah for ages. They had Talmidei Chachamim then, and they knew what a good Pshat was. And they knew they had gained an infinitely greater understanding of the Muchrach HaMestzius. Plus they were commanded NOT to perform Kishef or worship idols. The Kochos HaTumah don't do such things. They gain nothing and lose everything.
2) It was. But people still have Bechirah to believe something even though it was proven to them otherwise. Happens every day.
3) That is an excellent question. The Divrei Yoel asks it and says that it is a "peleh" on the Gra. (Note: For the record, even if there would be no such thing as Kishef, there would still be supernatural activity that comes from the Kochos HaTumah, which is a different thing entirely than Kishef.)
2) It was. But people still have Bechirah to believe something even though it was proven to them otherwise. Happens every day.
3) That is an excellent question. The Divrei Yoel asks it and says that it is a "peleh" on the Gra. (Note: For the record, even if there would be no such thing as Kishef, there would still be supernatural activity that comes from the Kochos HaTumah, which is a different thing entirely than Kishef.)
