14 replies to this topic

[7-yipol-tzadik-vekam!]

I was having a couple of questions I was wondering about.
Lets say someone does something that angers me, and I am still really upset by the time I am saying Kriyas Shema. Am I able to say "Hareini Mochel Lechol..."? Or am I not supposed to say it that night?
What if someone says something that hurts me, and I am still hurt by the comment at the time of Kriyas Shema but not necessarily angry because i understand where they are coming from . Am I allowed to say Hareni Mochel in that case? If they ask me forgiveness, and I am hurt but not angry and I say I forgive them, is that ok?
Thank you

[taon]

I can't pasken, but I had heard you shouldn't say it (There are stories of Rabbis who wouldn't go to sleep until they were able to forgive everything done to them because they wanted to be able to say it, and honestly).

[Rabbi Shapiro]

Lets say someone does something that angers me, and I am still really upset by the time I am saying Kriyas Shema. Am I able to say "Hareini Mochel Lechol..."? Or am I not supposed to say it that night?

Taon is right. Don't say it.

What if someone says something that hurts me, and I am still hurt by the comment at the time of Kriyas Shema but not necessarily angry because i understand where they are coming from . Am I allowed to say Hareni Mochel in that case? If they ask me forgiveness, and I am hurt but not angry and I say I forgive them, is that ok?

Well it depends on whether you really want to forgive them. Forgiving them means the issue is over.They are no longer culpable.If you are willing to forgive them - which is a good thing if it is done בלב שלם - then you should say it. If you do not want to forgive them, then don't say it.

[Yosef]

What problem is caused by saying you forgive someone if it wasn't said with a full sincerity?

[Rabbi Shapiro]

That was not the question. You write "full sincerity" as if we are talking about someone who does forgive but not with "full sincerity." That is not what we are talking about here.

If you do not forgive someone why in the world would you want to tell Hashem you do? Who exactly are you fooling? That Tefilah was designed for a purpose. It is not random words to say with no meaning.

[smillingirl]

What if it takes years and years to be mochel someone? Someone once told me that if you were really hurt, you don't necessarily need to forgive the one that hurt you. Is this true? For example, a child that was severely abused.

[smillingirl]

How do I know if someone didn't forgive me? Maybe my problems have to do with the fact that someone hasn't forgiven me.

[Rabbi Shapiro]

What if it takes years and years to be mochel someone? Someone once told me that if you were really hurt, you don't necessarily need to forgive the one that hurt you. Is this true? For example, a child that was severely abused.

You don't "have to" forgive anyone. But your choice not to forgive him means that he will be punished and we are not supposed to be cold (אכזרי) or cruel to anyone, even to people who hurt us. However, if you were hurt so bad that even without any semblance of אכזריות you still cannot find it in yourself to forgive him, there is no problem not forgiving. That is probably what that person meant.

But in your case, I would add something. The Magen Avraham (606:4) says that if the reason you do not forgive someone is because if you forgive them you will be hurt in some way, it is not a problem not to forgive.

Therefore, if, for example, you feel that the reason the person who wronged you was able to get away with it was because you had no power to protect yourself from them, and that if you forgive them, alleviating them of their enormous debt to you, that horrible feeling of powerlessness and lack of control that you felt all this time will only be intensified, then you do not have to worry about not forgiving. You do not have to suffer more because of the person who hurt you.

That having been said, I would be doing you an injustice by not telling you one more thing. It does not affect any of the above. You have full rights not to forgive whoever it is if what happened falls under the above. No problem. And I don't want you to think in any way that there is. No guilt. No pressure. You are well within your rights, not 90% but 1000%.

But i would be doing you an injustice by withholding this from you. Think of it when you are ready.

[Rabbi Shapiro]

How do I know if someone didn't forgive me? Maybe my problems have to do with the fact that someone hasn't forgiven me.

It may, so you should try to figure out whether you wronged someone and then try to right it.

If that is not an option because you can't think of anything or whoever it is that you wronged is not accessible, or some other reason, then we can only do what we can do.

In such a case, it helps for us to be mispallel to Hashem that our victim forgives us. It also helps for us to forgive others. Hashem works מדה כנגד מדה and He treats us the way we treat others - כל המרחם מרחמים עליו מן השמים - and Hashem can help whoever it is that you need forgiveness from to find it their heart to forgive you in absentia, even as you forgave others the same way.

[dojoyo]

im not a Rav so i can't paskin a/t but im just saying s/t that helps me is i think tht i really dont want wanyone to get hurt 4 what they did 2 me- like i dont want HaShem to punish them severely so i 4give them

[eidel]

Is there a difference between "not forgiving someone" and "not wanting to befriend her or meet her for her past deed(s) done to you"?
How do I know if I am bearing a grudge or that I simply don't see her as my type (to be friends with)?

One rebbetzin told me I don't have to be friends with a certain girl, but that I don't have to be enemies with her either.
Another rebbetzin goes, "We have to be friends with EVERYONE (every Yid) bcuz you never know when you'll need them." But to me that sounds selfish, like just keeping people so that you can use them...
Are there clear Halachos to this, for example if I'm obligated to smile (back) to a person or greet someone of the same gender whom I'd rather not see at all (although she didn't do a real crime to me, only that I am still hurt by her words and wish to stay away)?

[Rabbi Shapiro]

Forgiving someone means the issue is over, as if it never happened.

However, you don't have to forgive someone if forgiving them will harm you (or it will harm the perpetrator). For example, if by forgiving them it will encourage them to continue their offensive behavior, you don't have to forgive them.

If you forgive them, you would have no reason not to be friends with them.

[eidel]

Forgiving someone means the issue is over, as if it never happened.

If you forgive them, you would have no reason not to be friends with them.

I see. That's practically forgetting the whole incident. Thank you for the answer.

So I guess I was being dishonest by acting as if I were OK with them (girls/women i dont wanna have anything to do with) as if with people who never hurt me. Smiling, talking in a friendly manner..

Usually, after some amount of years, the hurt fades away (if it's not repeated).

Is it a Mitzvah to forgive right on the spot? Then, NOT because I wanna get away with my Aveiros nor to earn extra credit, but for the love of the Mitzvah, I should try...

It's so hard not to dislike someone who hurt me. This one woman, her voice haunts me when I step out of Shemoneh Esreh. But no, she didn't mean to hurt me, I think. We just have different standards. But for me, it doesn't always hurt me when somebody intentionally tries to hurt me, and it almost never helps to know that somebody didn't mean to hurt me when they actually hurt me. Is there something wrong with this (besides being terrified by this one woman.. cuz the incident is a bit too fresh)?

[eidel]

Then, ...if someone says he forgives me but he also says he doesn't want to be friends with me, how should I understand that? Should I think that it is something else (other than what I angered him for) that he doesn't want to be friends with me for?

[Rabbi Shapiro]

Then, ...if someone says he forgives me but he also says he doesn't want to be friends with me, how should I understand that? Should I think that it is something else (other than what I angered him for) that he doesn't want to be friends with me for?

The odds are it means he bears no grudge, wipes your slate clean, but believes you will not change your behavior and does not want to be on the receiving end of that behavior in the future.

For example: When the Chofetz Chaim forgave the thief that robbed him, that does not mean he would allow him unsupervised access to his money in the future.