With so many rebbes, roshei yeshiva, heads of organizations, etc., how are we to know who our gedolim are?
Who are the Gedolei Yisroel?
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mamash
, Dec 03 2011 11:21 PM
47 replies to this topic
#2
torah613
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Posted 05 December 2011 - 06:10 PM
That was discussed on the old site (http://classic.frumt...33&topic_id=159):
" BinaDaya Posted - 22 October 2001 17:19 BS"D
Moderator,
What makes something Daas Torah? Presumably, a statement made by a Gadol BaTorah would be Daas Torah. But how do we determine who is a Gadol BaTorah? If our Gedolim hold that _______ was not reliable to speak Daas Torah, while the followers of _______ hold that those who dicredited their leader are the ones who are not reliable, how is the simple ben-Torah, without being able to involve himself in years worth of complicated and relatively sophisticated arguments supposed to KNOW, beyond any doubt, who is the correct one to follow?? -Thank you. MODERATOR Posted - 24 October 2001 19:38 The trick here is to make an objective decision. This includes whether you are determining on your own if someone is a godol, or even if you want to determine who is a maven on who is a godol so you will have someone from whom to take direction.
A godol is someone whose Torah scholarship and righteousness is exceptional among the generation. Of course, he has to follow the derech of our previous Gedolim, the Mesorah of Klall Yisroel as well. That is pretty much unanimously the derech of the Chofetz Chaim, Rav Chaim Brisker, and their great contemporaries.
It does not include the following criteria:
(a) Who the Yated decides is a godol.
(b.) Whos the people who make "gedolim cards" decide who is a godol.
(c.) Who has a lot of followers.
(d) Who is a popular and talented speaker.
(e) Who preaches policies that you agree with.
If you want to know if someone is a godol, think:
Is his scholarship level exceptional in the generation? Does his knowledge span all areas of Torah - shas poskim, halachah and hashkafa. And is his knowledge deep and sharp. Can he answer the difficult questions in Torah better than his contemporaries? Are his chidushim exceptionally sharp and sure? Can he decipher Torah diffiulties in an exceptional manner?
Then, what about his Tzidkus? Is he an exceptional Tzadik? If so, in what measurable way?
If he wouldnt be a rosh yeshiva or a rav, but a yeshiva guy learning in the Lakewood Kollel, would people look at him as such a great Tzadik and Talmid Chacham as theny do now? Or is it just cuz of his position that people inflate his status?
Does he violate the Torah? Does he follow a Rebbi of his? Does he have a "mesorah" going back to the previous generations whose derech he is following? Do other people of the above caliber hold he is a godol?
All of us, whether we admit it or not, all decide on our own who is a godol, of what criteria we are going to use to determine that. We ALL have our criteria that we decided on our own to use (even if we decide that we cant know who is a godol, we decide who will will believe when they say it). The trick is to use proper criteria.
It is also important for the person to be wise and sharp. It is definitely possible for a Godol to be uninformed, misinformed, or underinformed. The Satmar Rebbe ZT"L used to say that a Godol BaTorah can be naive as well.
The most we can do is to try our best. More than that, Hashem does not require from us. The above criteria are the ones to use. The trick is not to have Hashem tell us we should have put more effort into the decision.
"
" BinaDaya Posted - 22 October 2001 17:19 BS"D
Moderator,
What makes something Daas Torah? Presumably, a statement made by a Gadol BaTorah would be Daas Torah. But how do we determine who is a Gadol BaTorah? If our Gedolim hold that _______ was not reliable to speak Daas Torah, while the followers of _______ hold that those who dicredited their leader are the ones who are not reliable, how is the simple ben-Torah, without being able to involve himself in years worth of complicated and relatively sophisticated arguments supposed to KNOW, beyond any doubt, who is the correct one to follow?? -Thank you. MODERATOR Posted - 24 October 2001 19:38 The trick here is to make an objective decision. This includes whether you are determining on your own if someone is a godol, or even if you want to determine who is a maven on who is a godol so you will have someone from whom to take direction.
A godol is someone whose Torah scholarship and righteousness is exceptional among the generation. Of course, he has to follow the derech of our previous Gedolim, the Mesorah of Klall Yisroel as well. That is pretty much unanimously the derech of the Chofetz Chaim, Rav Chaim Brisker, and their great contemporaries.
It does not include the following criteria:
(a) Who the Yated decides is a godol.
(b.) Whos the people who make "gedolim cards" decide who is a godol.
(c.) Who has a lot of followers.
(d) Who is a popular and talented speaker.
(e) Who preaches policies that you agree with.
If you want to know if someone is a godol, think:
Is his scholarship level exceptional in the generation? Does his knowledge span all areas of Torah - shas poskim, halachah and hashkafa. And is his knowledge deep and sharp. Can he answer the difficult questions in Torah better than his contemporaries? Are his chidushim exceptionally sharp and sure? Can he decipher Torah diffiulties in an exceptional manner?
Then, what about his Tzidkus? Is he an exceptional Tzadik? If so, in what measurable way?
If he wouldnt be a rosh yeshiva or a rav, but a yeshiva guy learning in the Lakewood Kollel, would people look at him as such a great Tzadik and Talmid Chacham as theny do now? Or is it just cuz of his position that people inflate his status?
Does he violate the Torah? Does he follow a Rebbi of his? Does he have a "mesorah" going back to the previous generations whose derech he is following? Do other people of the above caliber hold he is a godol?
All of us, whether we admit it or not, all decide on our own who is a godol, of what criteria we are going to use to determine that. We ALL have our criteria that we decided on our own to use (even if we decide that we cant know who is a godol, we decide who will will believe when they say it). The trick is to use proper criteria.
It is also important for the person to be wise and sharp. It is definitely possible for a Godol to be uninformed, misinformed, or underinformed. The Satmar Rebbe ZT"L used to say that a Godol BaTorah can be naive as well.
The most we can do is to try our best. More than that, Hashem does not require from us. The above criteria are the ones to use. The trick is not to have Hashem tell us we should have put more effort into the decision.
"
#5
danceInTheRain
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Posted 07 December 2011 - 03:26 AM
okay, im glad this topic came up because this is something im trying to grapple with for the longest time. but before i ask whats really on my mind i want to understand something.
moderator said that the way we can judge if someone is a gadol hador is not just by beleiving others and relying on the media and common opinion rather by checking out his chidushim, piskei halacha and so forth but what if im on the female side of the world and i have no way of judging who is sharp in torah learning and so forth?
moderator said that the way we can judge if someone is a gadol hador is not just by beleiving others and relying on the media and common opinion rather by checking out his chidushim, piskei halacha and so forth but what if im on the female side of the world and i have no way of judging who is sharp in torah learning and so forth?
#7
torah613
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Posted 19 December 2011 - 07:50 PM
Regarding "following the mesorah", the moderator explained it more on the old site (see below). But I still don't understand why the C"C allowing Torah for girls isn't considered "breaking" the Mesorah?
http://classic.frumt...s. Hashkafa&M=0
You need to plug yourself into the Mesorah of Klal Yisroel. There you will find guidance on what are "accepted" sources both of Halachha and Hashkafa. Because when you say "accepted" halachah seforim, you mean accepted by our Mesorah. The same criterion is needed regarding Hashkafa.
In general, nowadays Klall Yisroel (at least the Ashkenazim) are either Talmidim of the GRA or the Baal Shem Tov. Those two Mesorahs have been taken on (i.e. "accepted") by our Gedolim throughout the past few centuries to the exclusion of many other Hashkafic approaches. Those seforim and those approaches created by - or accepted by - those great Tzadikim and their Talmidim are safe bets for Halachah L'Maaseh when it comes to Halachos that you fulfill with your mind.
More specifically, you should filter your "Mesorah" and limit it to consist of those who are qualified to hand it over. Meaning, Torah scholars. Just because someone is a chosid, or a litvak, doesnt mean his hashkofos are in sync with reality.
You also want to filter out those who (even by their own admission) have broken with the Mesorah and gone on to create their own newfangled ideas, (usually because they believed that the Mesoah "would not work" in "modern society"), based on what they think "history has proven" or some such idea. We use the Torah to tell us what to do - not what we think we "see" ourselves (besides, history cannot prove anything since it has not finished articulating its opinion yet. It is only useful for demonstrating the truth of a Torah principle).
You also want to filter out those whose Hashkofos were influenced by secular values. The Goyim are not our Gedolim and their value system is not pat of the Mesorah. The rule of thumb is: If it wasnt given on Har Sinai, you dont want to follow it. So if someone's hashkofos are clearly influenced by the teachings of Nationalism, or Feminism, or Communism, or various other values that are alien to our Torah, filter them out as well.
Choose the greatest Gedolim - and part of that means the greatest Talmidei chachamim - who follow the tradition of their Rebbeim who follow the tradition oftheir Rebbeim who follow the tradition of theirs, et cetera.
(It should be noted that there are two different vetting processes described here: One to give you a "halachah kebasrai" perspective, the other to make sure your perspective is a Jewish one. If I am telling you that the chain of Mesorah in Ashkenaz Jewry has accpeted, in general, those two approaches, it does not mean there was anything wrong with the other at the time - it just is a matter of how we - for lack of a better term, "pasken". But the other criteria - scholarship, piety, and exclusivity - is designed to keep you way from ideas that are simply wrong)
So if you want to know what that boils down to, you will end up accepting your Hashkofo from the greatest Gedolei Yisroel. I am assuming you are not chasidish, and so what the above formula will tell you is you cant go wrong with the hashkofos of the chofetz chaim, chazon ish, brisker rav, rav ahron kotler, rav shach, etc.
http://classic.frumt...s. Hashkafa&M=0
You need to plug yourself into the Mesorah of Klal Yisroel. There you will find guidance on what are "accepted" sources both of Halachha and Hashkafa. Because when you say "accepted" halachah seforim, you mean accepted by our Mesorah. The same criterion is needed regarding Hashkafa.
In general, nowadays Klall Yisroel (at least the Ashkenazim) are either Talmidim of the GRA or the Baal Shem Tov. Those two Mesorahs have been taken on (i.e. "accepted") by our Gedolim throughout the past few centuries to the exclusion of many other Hashkafic approaches. Those seforim and those approaches created by - or accepted by - those great Tzadikim and their Talmidim are safe bets for Halachah L'Maaseh when it comes to Halachos that you fulfill with your mind.
More specifically, you should filter your "Mesorah" and limit it to consist of those who are qualified to hand it over. Meaning, Torah scholars. Just because someone is a chosid, or a litvak, doesnt mean his hashkofos are in sync with reality.
You also want to filter out those who (even by their own admission) have broken with the Mesorah and gone on to create their own newfangled ideas, (usually because they believed that the Mesoah "would not work" in "modern society"), based on what they think "history has proven" or some such idea. We use the Torah to tell us what to do - not what we think we "see" ourselves (besides, history cannot prove anything since it has not finished articulating its opinion yet. It is only useful for demonstrating the truth of a Torah principle).
You also want to filter out those whose Hashkofos were influenced by secular values. The Goyim are not our Gedolim and their value system is not pat of the Mesorah. The rule of thumb is: If it wasnt given on Har Sinai, you dont want to follow it. So if someone's hashkofos are clearly influenced by the teachings of Nationalism, or Feminism, or Communism, or various other values that are alien to our Torah, filter them out as well.
Choose the greatest Gedolim - and part of that means the greatest Talmidei chachamim - who follow the tradition of their Rebbeim who follow the tradition oftheir Rebbeim who follow the tradition of theirs, et cetera.
(It should be noted that there are two different vetting processes described here: One to give you a "halachah kebasrai" perspective, the other to make sure your perspective is a Jewish one. If I am telling you that the chain of Mesorah in Ashkenaz Jewry has accpeted, in general, those two approaches, it does not mean there was anything wrong with the other at the time - it just is a matter of how we - for lack of a better term, "pasken". But the other criteria - scholarship, piety, and exclusivity - is designed to keep you way from ideas that are simply wrong)
So if you want to know what that boils down to, you will end up accepting your Hashkofo from the greatest Gedolei Yisroel. I am assuming you are not chasidish, and so what the above formula will tell you is you cant go wrong with the hashkofos of the chofetz chaim, chazon ish, brisker rav, rav ahron kotler, rav shach, etc.
#8
torah613
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Posted 19 December 2011 - 07:50 PM
"and didnt leave that mesorah"
But aren't there instances of gedolim adjusting the mesorah for the needs of Klal Yisrael, such as the Chofetz Chaim allowing teaching Torah to girls? Although he was not allowing something that was previously assur (as the moderator explained on the old site: here:http://classic.frumt...orum_title=&M=1 and here: http://classic.frumt...=9&topic_id=334) but it still was changing completely what was done in Klal Yisrael for many centuries?
#9
Rabbi Shapiro
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Posted 29 December 2011 - 12:21 PM
"and didnt leave that mesorah"
But aren't there instances of gedolim adjusting the mesorah for the needs of Klal Yisrael, such as the Chofetz Chaim allowing teaching Torah to girls? Although he was not allowing something that was previously assur (as the moderator explained on the old site: here:http://classic.frumt...orum_title=&M=1 and here: http://classic.frumt...=9&topic_id=334) but it still was changing completely what was done in Klal Yisrael for many centuries?
Because while it is true that traditionally we did not teach girls Torah in the classroom it was also true that traditionally we always DID teach girls whatever Torah they needed to know and also Yiras Shamayim in the home. That was also part of the "Mesorah." The problem was, the second part of that Mesorah, which is by far the more important part, was broken, such that giving girls the education they needed would be salvaging what we could of our Mesorah, even if we needed to change the method of giving them that education.
That's called Hatzalah Purtah.
Letting girls go without the knowledge that they need would have been a much greater breach of our traditional lifestyle, and a much more serious reformation of it, than putting them in a classroom.
That was the Chofetz Chaim's judgement.
And not just the Chofetz Chaim. Even the Hungarian Chasidim who did not agree with the curriculum of the Bais Yaakov (for very valid reason) still created girls' schools in America where in Europe they had none. Founding those girls' schools was not an act of breaking the Mesorah. it was an act of repairing the Mesorah of ensuring that girls have the education they need, a Mesorah which was broken by the influence of Haskalah and secularism.
True, a refurbished product is not the same as the original (and that applies to Mesorahs as well) but it is much more similar to the original than a product that is left broken.
The Chofetz Chaim never intended to c"v "improve" our Mesorah or to create any "innovations" in our lifestyle. His intent was to ensure that our lifestyle would be subject to the least innovations possible. He did what he did in order to stop things from changing. He did not do it in order to change things.
#10
Rabbi Shapiro
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Posted 29 December 2011 - 12:58 PM
How Can You Tell Who Are the Gedolim?
I apologize for the delay in posting this. This is the first opportunity I have to do it since Shabbos Shuva when I gave the Drasha.
First, I want to define the term "Godol" for this post. The term is used differently in different places - see Pesachim 49b for example - לא מצא בת תלמיד חכם ישא בת גדול הדור. For our purposes, "Godol" will mean a Torah authority, i.e. someone whose opinion should carry weight. I am not talking about a "leader" - that is a Manhig; and I am not talking about someone who has great accomplishments, or who has or has had a great impact on Klall Yisroel. The question I am addressing in this post is: Whose opinion SHOULD I follow? Who is an authority on Torah?
We Need to Know:
As the Gemora (Shabbos 119a) says: אמר רבי יצחק לא חרבה ירושלים אלא בשביל שהושוו קטן וגדול שנאמר והיה כעם ככהן וכתיב בתריה הבוק תבוק הארץ. Imagine if you would not know who the real doctors are. Not knowing who the real Gedolim are has caused great destruction throughout our history: Korach / Egel / Meraglim / Yeravam / Naviei Sheker – Neviei Babaal / Avsholom / Shabse Zvi
See also:
רמב"ם יד החזקה - הלכות תלמוד תורה פרק ה
(ד) וכל תלמיד שלא הגיע להוראה ומורה הרי זה רשע שוטה וגס הרוח ועליו נאמר כי רבים חללים הפילה וגו' וכן חכם שהגיע להוראה ואינו מורה הרי זה מונע תורה ונותן מכשולות לפני העורים ועליו נאמר ועצומים כל הרוגיה אלו התלמידים הקטנים שלא הרבו תורה כראוי והם מבקשים להתגדל בפני עמי הארץ ובין אנשי עירם וקופצין ויושבין בראש לדין ולהורות בישראל הם המרבים המחלוקת והם המחריבים את העולם והמכבין נרה של תורה והמחבלים כרם ה' צבאות עליהם אמר שלמה בחכמתו אחזו לנו שועלים שועלים קטנים מחבלים כרמים:
The problem still exists in our times. Our Seforim are full of statement to the effect that people - even good Jews - often do not know who the real gedolim are. See Toldos Yaakov Yosef (Shoftim), Agra D'Kalah (Bo 149b), Yaaros Dvash (vol. 2 Drasha for 7 Av), Michas Elazar (Divrei Torah), Divrei Yoel Bamidbar 69, and more. There is a special darkness destined to afflict the generations before Moshiach comes that they will not recognize their Gedolim. (Of course, this does not mean that every individual must be subject to the curse - like the Rambam says regarding the Egyptians persecuting the Jews).
How NOT To Tell Who The Gedolim Are:
Our Seforim tell us that it has always been a problem that people accept as Gedolim those who are accepted by many people as Gedolim. See Toldos Yaakov Yosef and Agra D'Kalah cited above. We cannot accept someone as a Godol because he is accepted by many people as a Godol. His acceptance can be due to his saying what people want to hear (as the Gemora says in Kesuvos) or various other reasons, such as marketing for example. But "who is accepted by many people" is not a valid criterion. See also teshuvos Ben Poras of R. Yosef Engel, citing Maharsha, that only Bnei Torah should be voting for who to hire as a Rav (and Shochet etc), and the non-Torah scholars should stay out of it because they are not mavens and their voting will only bring into power people who are not really qualified. See also שו"ת דברי חיים אבן העזר חלק ב סימן נ
ואם יסכימו לומדי אמת לא גדולים המכונים אזי גם אנכי עמהם
Ask yourself: Why do you accept so-and-so as a Godol? If the answer is because "he is accepted as such" then ask yourself why he is accepted as such?
Notice the description the Torah gives of Adas Korach, the classic example people who caused others to rebel against the real Gedolim:
.
וַיָּקֻמוּ לִפְנֵי משֶׁה וַאֲנָשִׁים מִבְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל חֲמִשִּׁים וּמָאתָיִם נְשִׂיאֵי עֵדָה קְרִאֵי מוֹעֵד אַנְשֵׁי שם
They were leaders of people, gatherers of people, and were popular. In other words, their qualifications were that they were leaders that were "accepted" by many people and were popular with them.
.
How To Tell Who The Gedolim Are:
Note how different are the qualifications that Yisro suggested to Moshe for those who should have authority over Klall Yisroel:
.
וְאַתָּה תֶחֱזֶה מִכָּל הָעָם אַנְשֵׁי חַיִל יִרְאֵי אֱלֹהִים אַנְשֵׁי אֱמֶת שׂנְאֵי בָצַע
Instead of Nesiei Edah we have Anshei Chayil - courageous people. Says Rashi: People who do not need to pander to the public because they do not depend on them.
Instead of Keruei Moed, people with followings, we have Yorei Elokim - people who follow Hashem.
Instead of Anshei Shem, popular people, we have Anshei Emes - people who are truthful and truth-seekers, even if it is not popular.
That is the difference between the real Gedolim and the "pop" Gedolim.
Oh, and, of course, one more qualification Yisro gave, which in the context of the Posuk is really the job description:
.
(וְהִזְהַרְתָּה אֶתְהֶם אֶת הַחֻקִּים וְאֶת הַתּוֹרֹת וְהוֹדַעְתָּ לָהֶם אֶת הַדֶּרֶךְ יֵלְכוּ בָהּ וְאֶת הַמַּעֲשֶׂה אֲשֶׁר יַעֲשׂוּן
Meaning, they have to know enough Torah to be a Godol.
Let's start with the learning part:
Qualification #1: He has to know Torah. The Chazon Ish (Emunah UBitachon) states that first and foremost, he must know Halachic Torah - that means not just Hashkafa, not just theology, not just Medrash. If he does not know Gemora-Rashi-Tosfos-Shas, he is incapable of understanding even Mussar and morals (some of this was censored from the Greineman version of the Emunah UBitachon, but has been reprinted in other versions). Without Shas, you do not know Torah and you are not qualified as a Godol. A Godol must have Gadlus in Shas and Poskim.
But not just knowledge of Shas and Poskim. As Rav Chaim Volozhiner said: לא נשתבחו הראשונים אלא בסברא ישרה וכל הגדול בסברא מחברו גדול מחברו ע"כ - in order to have Gadlus in learning (not just "Gadus; in order to know how to learn altogether), you need to stand out in סברא. See also .סמכן שאינו סברן מיקרי הדיוט – פרישה חו"מ ג"א
What is Svara? Explains Rashi (Avodah Zorah 19a) : סברא - ללמוד חריפות וחידוד הלב לאחר שלמד ושגורה בפיו גירסת התלמוד
Greatness in Torah requires the ability to be עוקר הרים. If someone does not stand out in his ability to be able to answer contradictions in Tosfosin and to answer the questions of Rabi Akiva Eger, and to explain the seeming unexplainable, then forget him as a Godol. Even if he can repeat Shas and all the Poskim in the world by heart, if he does not stand out in the skill called "Svara," he does not qualify. He may have a lot of information, but he invariably cannot understand it.
By way of analogy, it is like someone trying to figure out the answer to 3 + 2 x 5. The answer is, of course, 13, not 25. Because not only do you need to know what the words say, but you need to know how to interpret the "code' with which they were written. So too with learning. Someone may know a lot of information, but without Svara, he will no understand the message the information is trying to convey.
How often has someone tried to pass off to me someone as a Godol and I ask them, "OK, tell me a good vort from so-and-so," "A good pshat," "a good answer to a difficult question," And they are stuck. If you do not know that your "authority" excels in answering contradictions in Tosfos, then you have no right to assume he is anything close to a Godol, no matter what or how much he knows. Never mind Godol - you have no knowledge that he even knows how to learn.
So rule #1 - He must excel in his knowledge of Torah - that means, among other things, Shas and Poskim, and he must be a Gaon in Svara.
Another requirement in order to qualify as someone knowledgeable in Torah: He must follow a Mesorah. Without that, he will not know a good Svara from a bad one; he will not know a Dochek from a Geonus; he will not know who is more authoritative than whom; he will not know his place and the boundaries of what he is entitled and not entitled to innovate or debate.
And, most importantly, our entire religion is only the sum total of the Mesorah handed down from authority to authority from Moshe Rabbeinu down. If his Derech - in learning, in Hashkafa, in anything - is not following in a chain of tradition that can be traced to much earlier authorities, he is not following the Torah.
This does not mean only that he must have "sources." That is insufficient. Sources can be conjured creatively, and sometimes this creative conjuring is legitimate and sometimes it is not. If it is within the boundaries of what he accepted from his Rebbi, who accepted it from his Rebbi etc., then it is legitimate. If it is his own innovation that goes beyond the boundaries set by his predecessors, or is not supported by the Torah policies handed down by his predecessors then it is not reliable.
Of course, not only does the candidate have to be following in the ways of his predecessors, but his predecessors have to be following in the ways of their predecessors, and so forth. A "mesorah" by definition is not one or two generations old.
Also, not everyone who "had a Rebbi" follows in the Derech of his Rebbi or Rebbeim. You want to make sure that your Godol-candidate does. This does not mean he is a copycat. As I heard in the name of Rav Yisroel Salanter said: "A monkey is someone who always says 'The Rebbi said.' A Talmid is someone who says 'The Rebbi would have said." There s plenty of room for Chidush. Infinite room, in fact. But Chidush is not enough. It has to be Torah as well. And for that it has to be the product of a thought-system that follows a Mesorah.
Requirement #2 - The person must be following a direct Mesorah.
Next. Even if all the above is present, there is a disqualifier, that can undo the authority of someone's opinion even if all of the above are present. You need to make sure that your candidate's opinion has not been tainted by outside, non-Torah influences. The idea is simple: Imagine if you were on trial and had to pick a jury. There is someone very intelligent and honest, but he read some newspaper articles about your case.
Would you take him as a juror? Nope. Even if he swears that he will ignore everything he read about your case.
Same thing with a Torah opinion. If you want to know what the Torah says about something, you want to rely on the judgement of someone whose opinion has not been tainted.
This factor is responsible for many disqualifications of what would likely have otherwise been authoritative opinions.
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Worst case scenario is if a person is influenced by Apikorsus. It is said in the name of Rav Chaim Volozhen, quoted by the Ridvaz in his commentary on Chumash, that if a person believes even one piece of heresy, it is not possible for him to find the truth in any area of Torah, even those areas that do not seem to be relevant to his heretical belief.
But even his influences are not heretical, in order to interpret Torah values - or anything else - you need to be objective. And you would not trust someone whose opinion was tainted.
Now obviously, we all have outside influences, to some degree or another. And like most of the the other standards here, it is relative. But this underscores the immense value of someone whose opinion comes only from the controlled environment of Rava and Abaye, without any secular sources influencing or contributing to it. And the attitude with which someone absorbs secular values matters very much as well. If someone read a newspaper article about your case, you would not want him on the jury, but there is still a big difference between someone who believes what he read versus someone who does not; between someone who cares what the newspapers say versus someone who does not; between someone who thinks the newspapers are sources of wisdom versus someone who thinks they are full of baloney, etc. Same thing here. It is all relative.
Requirement #3 - Opinions not tainted by outside influences.
Now that we have seen what is required to produce authoritative Torah, we are ready to go to the next step and see what personality traits are required to be considered a Torah authority.
(to be continued)
I apologize for the delay in posting this. This is the first opportunity I have to do it since Shabbos Shuva when I gave the Drasha.
First, I want to define the term "Godol" for this post. The term is used differently in different places - see Pesachim 49b for example - לא מצא בת תלמיד חכם ישא בת גדול הדור. For our purposes, "Godol" will mean a Torah authority, i.e. someone whose opinion should carry weight. I am not talking about a "leader" - that is a Manhig; and I am not talking about someone who has great accomplishments, or who has or has had a great impact on Klall Yisroel. The question I am addressing in this post is: Whose opinion SHOULD I follow? Who is an authority on Torah?
We Need to Know:
As the Gemora (Shabbos 119a) says: אמר רבי יצחק לא חרבה ירושלים אלא בשביל שהושוו קטן וגדול שנאמר והיה כעם ככהן וכתיב בתריה הבוק תבוק הארץ. Imagine if you would not know who the real doctors are. Not knowing who the real Gedolim are has caused great destruction throughout our history: Korach / Egel / Meraglim / Yeravam / Naviei Sheker – Neviei Babaal / Avsholom / Shabse Zvi
See also:
רמב"ם יד החזקה - הלכות תלמוד תורה פרק ה
(ד) וכל תלמיד שלא הגיע להוראה ומורה הרי זה רשע שוטה וגס הרוח ועליו נאמר כי רבים חללים הפילה וגו' וכן חכם שהגיע להוראה ואינו מורה הרי זה מונע תורה ונותן מכשולות לפני העורים ועליו נאמר ועצומים כל הרוגיה אלו התלמידים הקטנים שלא הרבו תורה כראוי והם מבקשים להתגדל בפני עמי הארץ ובין אנשי עירם וקופצין ויושבין בראש לדין ולהורות בישראל הם המרבים המחלוקת והם המחריבים את העולם והמכבין נרה של תורה והמחבלים כרם ה' צבאות עליהם אמר שלמה בחכמתו אחזו לנו שועלים שועלים קטנים מחבלים כרמים:
The problem still exists in our times. Our Seforim are full of statement to the effect that people - even good Jews - often do not know who the real gedolim are. See Toldos Yaakov Yosef (Shoftim), Agra D'Kalah (Bo 149b), Yaaros Dvash (vol. 2 Drasha for 7 Av), Michas Elazar (Divrei Torah), Divrei Yoel Bamidbar 69, and more. There is a special darkness destined to afflict the generations before Moshiach comes that they will not recognize their Gedolim. (Of course, this does not mean that every individual must be subject to the curse - like the Rambam says regarding the Egyptians persecuting the Jews).
How NOT To Tell Who The Gedolim Are:
Our Seforim tell us that it has always been a problem that people accept as Gedolim those who are accepted by many people as Gedolim. See Toldos Yaakov Yosef and Agra D'Kalah cited above. We cannot accept someone as a Godol because he is accepted by many people as a Godol. His acceptance can be due to his saying what people want to hear (as the Gemora says in Kesuvos) or various other reasons, such as marketing for example. But "who is accepted by many people" is not a valid criterion. See also teshuvos Ben Poras of R. Yosef Engel, citing Maharsha, that only Bnei Torah should be voting for who to hire as a Rav (and Shochet etc), and the non-Torah scholars should stay out of it because they are not mavens and their voting will only bring into power people who are not really qualified. See also שו"ת דברי חיים אבן העזר חלק ב סימן נ
ואם יסכימו לומדי אמת לא גדולים המכונים אזי גם אנכי עמהם
Ask yourself: Why do you accept so-and-so as a Godol? If the answer is because "he is accepted as such" then ask yourself why he is accepted as such?
Notice the description the Torah gives of Adas Korach, the classic example people who caused others to rebel against the real Gedolim:
.
וַיָּקֻמוּ לִפְנֵי משֶׁה וַאֲנָשִׁים מִבְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל חֲמִשִּׁים וּמָאתָיִם נְשִׂיאֵי עֵדָה קְרִאֵי מוֹעֵד אַנְשֵׁי שם
They were leaders of people, gatherers of people, and were popular. In other words, their qualifications were that they were leaders that were "accepted" by many people and were popular with them.
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How To Tell Who The Gedolim Are:
Note how different are the qualifications that Yisro suggested to Moshe for those who should have authority over Klall Yisroel:
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וְאַתָּה תֶחֱזֶה מִכָּל הָעָם אַנְשֵׁי חַיִל יִרְאֵי אֱלֹהִים אַנְשֵׁי אֱמֶת שׂנְאֵי בָצַע
Instead of Nesiei Edah we have Anshei Chayil - courageous people. Says Rashi: People who do not need to pander to the public because they do not depend on them.
Instead of Keruei Moed, people with followings, we have Yorei Elokim - people who follow Hashem.
Instead of Anshei Shem, popular people, we have Anshei Emes - people who are truthful and truth-seekers, even if it is not popular.
That is the difference between the real Gedolim and the "pop" Gedolim.
Oh, and, of course, one more qualification Yisro gave, which in the context of the Posuk is really the job description:
.
(וְהִזְהַרְתָּה אֶתְהֶם אֶת הַחֻקִּים וְאֶת הַתּוֹרֹת וְהוֹדַעְתָּ לָהֶם אֶת הַדֶּרֶךְ יֵלְכוּ בָהּ וְאֶת הַמַּעֲשֶׂה אֲשֶׁר יַעֲשׂוּן
Meaning, they have to know enough Torah to be a Godol.
Let's start with the learning part:
Qualification #1: He has to know Torah. The Chazon Ish (Emunah UBitachon) states that first and foremost, he must know Halachic Torah - that means not just Hashkafa, not just theology, not just Medrash. If he does not know Gemora-Rashi-Tosfos-Shas, he is incapable of understanding even Mussar and morals (some of this was censored from the Greineman version of the Emunah UBitachon, but has been reprinted in other versions). Without Shas, you do not know Torah and you are not qualified as a Godol. A Godol must have Gadlus in Shas and Poskim.
But not just knowledge of Shas and Poskim. As Rav Chaim Volozhiner said: לא נשתבחו הראשונים אלא בסברא ישרה וכל הגדול בסברא מחברו גדול מחברו ע"כ - in order to have Gadlus in learning (not just "Gadus; in order to know how to learn altogether), you need to stand out in סברא. See also .סמכן שאינו סברן מיקרי הדיוט – פרישה חו"מ ג"א
What is Svara? Explains Rashi (Avodah Zorah 19a) : סברא - ללמוד חריפות וחידוד הלב לאחר שלמד ושגורה בפיו גירסת התלמוד
Greatness in Torah requires the ability to be עוקר הרים. If someone does not stand out in his ability to be able to answer contradictions in Tosfosin and to answer the questions of Rabi Akiva Eger, and to explain the seeming unexplainable, then forget him as a Godol. Even if he can repeat Shas and all the Poskim in the world by heart, if he does not stand out in the skill called "Svara," he does not qualify. He may have a lot of information, but he invariably cannot understand it.
By way of analogy, it is like someone trying to figure out the answer to 3 + 2 x 5. The answer is, of course, 13, not 25. Because not only do you need to know what the words say, but you need to know how to interpret the "code' with which they were written. So too with learning. Someone may know a lot of information, but without Svara, he will no understand the message the information is trying to convey.
How often has someone tried to pass off to me someone as a Godol and I ask them, "OK, tell me a good vort from so-and-so," "A good pshat," "a good answer to a difficult question," And they are stuck. If you do not know that your "authority" excels in answering contradictions in Tosfos, then you have no right to assume he is anything close to a Godol, no matter what or how much he knows. Never mind Godol - you have no knowledge that he even knows how to learn.
So rule #1 - He must excel in his knowledge of Torah - that means, among other things, Shas and Poskim, and he must be a Gaon in Svara.
Another requirement in order to qualify as someone knowledgeable in Torah: He must follow a Mesorah. Without that, he will not know a good Svara from a bad one; he will not know a Dochek from a Geonus; he will not know who is more authoritative than whom; he will not know his place and the boundaries of what he is entitled and not entitled to innovate or debate.
And, most importantly, our entire religion is only the sum total of the Mesorah handed down from authority to authority from Moshe Rabbeinu down. If his Derech - in learning, in Hashkafa, in anything - is not following in a chain of tradition that can be traced to much earlier authorities, he is not following the Torah.
This does not mean only that he must have "sources." That is insufficient. Sources can be conjured creatively, and sometimes this creative conjuring is legitimate and sometimes it is not. If it is within the boundaries of what he accepted from his Rebbi, who accepted it from his Rebbi etc., then it is legitimate. If it is his own innovation that goes beyond the boundaries set by his predecessors, or is not supported by the Torah policies handed down by his predecessors then it is not reliable.
Of course, not only does the candidate have to be following in the ways of his predecessors, but his predecessors have to be following in the ways of their predecessors, and so forth. A "mesorah" by definition is not one or two generations old.
Also, not everyone who "had a Rebbi" follows in the Derech of his Rebbi or Rebbeim. You want to make sure that your Godol-candidate does. This does not mean he is a copycat. As I heard in the name of Rav Yisroel Salanter said: "A monkey is someone who always says 'The Rebbi said.' A Talmid is someone who says 'The Rebbi would have said." There s plenty of room for Chidush. Infinite room, in fact. But Chidush is not enough. It has to be Torah as well. And for that it has to be the product of a thought-system that follows a Mesorah.
Requirement #2 - The person must be following a direct Mesorah.
Next. Even if all the above is present, there is a disqualifier, that can undo the authority of someone's opinion even if all of the above are present. You need to make sure that your candidate's opinion has not been tainted by outside, non-Torah influences. The idea is simple: Imagine if you were on trial and had to pick a jury. There is someone very intelligent and honest, but he read some newspaper articles about your case.
Would you take him as a juror? Nope. Even if he swears that he will ignore everything he read about your case.
Same thing with a Torah opinion. If you want to know what the Torah says about something, you want to rely on the judgement of someone whose opinion has not been tainted.
This factor is responsible for many disqualifications of what would likely have otherwise been authoritative opinions.
- See for example, the letter of the Imrei Emes regarding R. Kook, who he says is guilty of saying Tameh is Tahor and Tahor is Tameh because he was influenced by contemporary [non-Jewish] ideas. (That sentence in the letter of the Imrei Emes, by the way, was not surprisingly censored and omitted by Simcha Raz when he quoted the Imrei Emes' letter in his biography on R. Kook.). R. Kooks' philosophy was greatly influenced - and not only influenced; often it is directly correlative to - the ideas of Goyishe philosophers such as this one and this one. (Nobody questions this, even the Modern Orthodox - see here, p. 15, "As a subtext") This is the reason nobody can find Torah sources for the distorted things in R. Kooks' writings - the things the Imrei Emes was referring to - they come from Goyish philosophy, not Torah. This influence taints his Torah-judgement in general, just as a juror's judgement would be tainted by reading outside opinions of his case, all the moreso if he willingly incorporates those outside opinions into his perspective.
- Example #2 - See Rav Shach's MIchtavim Umaamarim (vol. 4 p. 38) regarding an essay he was shown in Rabbi Yosef B. Soloveichik's "Five Addresses" regarding Yosef and his brothers. Quote:
"These things are forbidden to hear, and certainly forbidden to write for posterity. I am quoting them in order to show how far outside knowledge (chochmos chitzonius) causes the distortion and lowering of Daas Torah". (See also Michtavim Umaamarim vol. 4 p. 107.)
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Worst case scenario is if a person is influenced by Apikorsus. It is said in the name of Rav Chaim Volozhen, quoted by the Ridvaz in his commentary on Chumash, that if a person believes even one piece of heresy, it is not possible for him to find the truth in any area of Torah, even those areas that do not seem to be relevant to his heretical belief.
But even his influences are not heretical, in order to interpret Torah values - or anything else - you need to be objective. And you would not trust someone whose opinion was tainted.
Now obviously, we all have outside influences, to some degree or another. And like most of the the other standards here, it is relative. But this underscores the immense value of someone whose opinion comes only from the controlled environment of Rava and Abaye, without any secular sources influencing or contributing to it. And the attitude with which someone absorbs secular values matters very much as well. If someone read a newspaper article about your case, you would not want him on the jury, but there is still a big difference between someone who believes what he read versus someone who does not; between someone who cares what the newspapers say versus someone who does not; between someone who thinks the newspapers are sources of wisdom versus someone who thinks they are full of baloney, etc. Same thing here. It is all relative.
Requirement #3 - Opinions not tainted by outside influences.
Now that we have seen what is required to produce authoritative Torah, we are ready to go to the next step and see what personality traits are required to be considered a Torah authority.
(to be continued)
#13
taon
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Posted 08 January 2012 - 10:50 PM
He has to know Torah. The Chazon Ish (EMunah UBitachon) states that first and foremost, he must know Halachic Torah - that means not just Hashkafa, not just theology, not just Medrash. If he does not know Gemora-Rashi-Tosfos-Shas, he is incapable of understanding even Mussar and morals (some of this was censored from the Greineman version of the Emunah UBitachon, but has been reprinted in other versions).
Why would this be censored?
Thanks for posting this (and all the other divrei Torah) by the way.
#14
Rabbi Shapiro
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Posted 09 January 2012 - 10:56 PM
Because I imagine the publisher figured it would insult Baalei Mussar.
Why would this be censored?
Thanks for posting this (and all the other divrei Torah) by the way.
In the introduction to Lev Eliyahu, the writer says that Rav Elya Lopian did not allow his students to read the Emunah UBitachon of the Chazon Ish because it (I think this is an exact quote) "it has things that are not explained clearly and can lead to discouraging of the learning of Mussar."
#15
torah613
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Posted 15 January 2012 - 06:24 PM
Here's another link from the old site regarding following the gedolim:
http://classic.frumt...Judaism&M=0&S=1
http://classic.frumt...Judaism&M=0&S=1
#18
mamash
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Posted 03 February 2012 - 01:53 PM
"What is Svara? Explains Rashi (Avodah Zorah 19a) : סברא - ללמוד חריפות וחידוד הלב לאחר שלמד ושגורה בפיו גירסת התלמוד
Greatness in Torah requires the ability to be עוקר הרים. If someone does not stand out in his ability to be able to answer contradictions in Tosfosin and to answer the questions of Rabi Akiva Eger, and to explain the seeming unexplainable, then forget him as a Godol. Even if he can repeat Shas and all the Poskim in the world by heart, if he does not stand out in the skill called "Svara," he does not qualify. He may have a lot of information, but he invariably cannot understand it."
I'm having a hard time understanding what objectively good svara is. For example (and I know I may be over generalizing things), wasn't the Satmar Rebbe ztl known to have disliked the litvishe mehalech in learning, and to have referred to their svaras as "boich svaras?" However, there are different [legitimate] mehalchim in learning, right? Also, I know these were just examples, but how is the average person to know whether or not a gadol candidate (for lack of a better term) is giving a good answer to Rebbi Akiva Eiger?
Greatness in Torah requires the ability to be עוקר הרים. If someone does not stand out in his ability to be able to answer contradictions in Tosfosin and to answer the questions of Rabi Akiva Eger, and to explain the seeming unexplainable, then forget him as a Godol. Even if he can repeat Shas and all the Poskim in the world by heart, if he does not stand out in the skill called "Svara," he does not qualify. He may have a lot of information, but he invariably cannot understand it."
I'm having a hard time understanding what objectively good svara is. For example (and I know I may be over generalizing things), wasn't the Satmar Rebbe ztl known to have disliked the litvishe mehalech in learning, and to have referred to their svaras as "boich svaras?" However, there are different [legitimate] mehalchim in learning, right? Also, I know these were just examples, but how is the average person to know whether or not a gadol candidate (for lack of a better term) is giving a good answer to Rebbi Akiva Eiger?
