27 replies to this topic

[ilavHashem]

so this doesn't really fit under the BT topic, but i didn't know where to put it....
so my second cousins are not really frum,,,,but with much persuasion they had a kosher wedding and chuppah
a few months after their wedding, my father saw their kesuba in their garbage (they lived in our Apt.building)
this was a few years ago
yesterday, in school, my teacher said that if a kesuba is thrown out, it cuases major complications! the couple might not be able to live together...
this really shook me up, can someone explain to me these halachos?
i want to help them but i don;t know how, or if there is even a problem to begin with....
thanx!

[Rabbi Shapiro]

If the woman does not have her Kesuva, the couple cannot be together. They need to create a new, replacement Kesuva. The replacement Kesuva is worded differently than the original, but like the original, it needs 2 Kosher witnesses to sign it. Without either the original or a replacement Kesuva, the couple may not be together.

[ilavHashem]

oysh....thn they hav issues....wud their sun b considered a mamzer?

[Rabbi Shapiro]

No. A child is a Mamzer only if he is the result of incest (defined by Halachah) or adultery (on the part of the mother).

The truth is, generally, I don't push non-religious couples to have a kosher wedding. The reason is, although living together without a kosher wedding is a problem, having a kosher wedding can lead to worse problems. Unfortunately, the divorce rate in America is pretty high. Now if someone has a kosher marriage but a non-kosher divorce, meaning a divorce without a Get, we have big problems, Because that woman who thinks she is divorced is really still married, and if she now marries someone else her children are real Mazerim, since she is considered married to the first husband, and her children therefore were the product of an adulterous relationship (and it doesn't help is she has a kosher marriage the second time. The second marriage is Halachicly invalid).

Now an Orthodox rabbi will never perform a Kiddushin that involves a woman who was previously married unless she shows she had a valid Get from the first husband. But if we're talking about non-religious people, it is very likely that she won't get a kosher marriage the second time around. And even if she doesn't ever remarry, she's still a married woman who thinks she's single and if she has any relationship she's an adulteress and her kids mamzerim. And if she wants to become frum and she was once married but divorced without a Get it can be a big problem.

Of course we hope such things won't happen (except of course her becoming frum). But because getting married Halachicly may end up making more problems than it solves, If I know of a non-frum couple that does not want a Halachic wedding, I won't push them to get one. If they want a Halachic wedding, I won't push them not to get one either.

[shaya]

wow, would have never thought of this rabbi.

[ilavHashem]

wat wud a child born to unmarried parents be considered? is this situation the same?

[Rabbi Shapiro]

A child born of unwed parents is not a mamzer.

A child born to parents who had a non-kosher wedding is also not a mamzer.

But a child born to a mother who had a kosher wedding and then got a non-kosher divorce, and then got remarried (or not) and had a child from the second relationship, is a mamzer.

[FS613]

I understand that a Mamzer can marry only a Mamzeress, and vice versa.

Is Mamzerus permanently passed down from generation to generation?

That is, are all of the descendants of a Mamzer, considered Mamzerim, in every succeeding generation?

Or does the Mamzerus stop after a certain number of generations; say, 7, for example?

Thank you.

[Rabbi Shapiro]

I understand that a Mamzer can marry only a Mamzeress, and vice versa.

Is Mamzerus permanently passed down from generation to generation?

That is, are all of the descendants of a Mamzer, considered Mamzerim, in every succeeding generation?

Or does the Mamzerus stop after a certain number of generations; say, 7, for example?

Thank you.

It goes on forever.

[ilavHashem]

does a mamzer have the same chiyuv to marry n have kids?

[Rabbi Shapiro]

does a mamzer have the same chiyuv to marry n have kids?

Excellent question. The Minchas Chinuch (Mitzvah 1) discussed whether someone who has an illicit relationship which results in a Mamzer fulfills Pru Urvu. He leaves the question unanswered, because he says it is hard for him to believe a person can fulfill Pru Urvu by producing Mamzerim in the world.

I would assume the same applies to a Mamzer himself fulfilling Pru Urvu. If he marries a Mamzeres (he is not allowed to marry a regular Jewish woman), their child will be a Mamzer. If making Mamzerim is not a fulfillment of Pru Urvu, he would not be able to fulfill the Mitzvah, and therefore he would be exempt. But if bringing a Mamzer into the world does fulfill Pru Urvu, then I see no reason he should not be obligated in the Mitzvah.

So the Minchas Chinuch's unanswered question would apply here too.

[eidel]

No. A child is a Mamzer only if he is the result of incest (defined by Halachah) or adultery (on the part of the mother).

What about a child between a Mamzer and a non-Mamzer? And is there any difference if the Mamzer parent is the father or mother (Mamzeress)?

[taon]

Either one.

[eidel]

Either one.

In either case the status of a child is not a Mamzer? Or is the child a Mamzer?

[taon]

Sorry i wasn't clear, if either parent is a mamzer the child is as well.

[eidel]

Thank you, taon. Now I got what Rabbi Shapiro meant that it "goes on forever". I was confused cuz it sounded as if it depended only on marriages/divorces.

[FS613]

At which point was Halacha changed, so that relations between a brother and sister are considered incest, and R"L their child a Mamzer?

For example, Adam's children had no one else to have relations with, except each other.

Rus descended from a father-daughter relationship.

Please correct me if I'm wrong about this, but I believe that I once read that each of Yaakov Aveenu's sons (except Yosef, who married Deena's daughter, Osnas) married a sister whom he was born with.

Thank you.

[Rabbi Shapiro]

At which point was Halacha changed, so that relations between a brother and sister are considered incest, and R"L their child a Mamzer?

For example, Adam's children had no one else to have relations with, except each other.

Rus descended from a father-daughter relationship.

Please correct me if I'm wrong about this, but I believe that I once read that each of Yaakov Aveenu's sons (except Yosef, who married Deena's daughter, Osnas) married a sister whom he was born with.

Thank you.

Before the Torah was given, there was no such thing as marriage, and the laws of Arayos were different. Yaakov Avinu, for example, married two sisters. After Kabbalas HaTorah, the marriage laws the institution of marriage came into existence and all the Halachos of relationships came into effect.

[Menorah]

How was Yaakov Avinu able to marry two sisters, considering that the Avos kept the Torah?

[Moderator #3]

How was Yaakov Avinu able to marry two sisters, considering that the Avos kept the Torah?

Before the Torah was given, there was no such thing as marriage, and therefore there were no marriage related prohibitions in effect. (There are other answers to this as well.)