39 replies to this topic

[Rabbi Shapiro]

Anyone can make any prayer they want - for girls, for children in general, or for anything they want. Women usually didn't come to davening, and mostly didn't daven formal Tefilos at all, so they didn't make a formal prayer for them - assuming they even wanted girls more than boys Men probably usually wanted boys, so they made a formal prayer for that. But anyone can make any prayer they want, and use it at their discretion.

[matan]

Why does it matter if they came to davening, they still davened. Why do you think they never davened formal tefilos?

[FS613]

Regarding Jewish marriage,

are there any instances where a marriage can be annulled, e. g. if it was never consummated?

Thank you.

[Rabbi Shapiro]

Why does it matter if they came to davening, they still davened. Why do you think they never davened formal tefilos?

As I mentioned, that's just a side point. Couples (but especially men) generally wanted sons. Anybody can pray for anything they want - including daughters - so the lack of a template prayer for it doesn't mean anything. It just means they composed this voluntary prayer according to the general desire to pray for boys. It doesn't really mean anything more than that.

But also, women had little time to daven, because they were usually busy with their Avodas Hashem of taking care of their families. To add more formal Tefilos to the routine of people who had very little time to say even the regular ones was unnecessary - it would not be used much, and they can easily pray on their own any added Tefilah without any specific formulation. So there was no real reason to do it.

Therefore, the Siddurim in general were not printed for women. For example, Sefardi women skip the Brachos of Boruch Sheamar and Yishtabach (or the Shem Hashem in them), but until recently no Siddur ever indicated that if you are a woman you should skip it. Another example: The Sidur authored by the Baal HaTanya (that Lubavitchers use) omits the Bracha of שעשני כרצונו even though the Baal HaTanya himself rules women should say it. The reason he left it out is because women did not use the regular Siddur - even when they davened the formal Tefilos they used a Siddur with Yiddish translation. The Tanya wrote his Siddur for those who used it, i.e. males.

[Rabbi Shapiro]

Regarding Jewish marriage,

are there any instances where a marriage can be annulled, e. g. if it was never consummated?

Thank you.

No.

[matan]

Thanks for the clarification.

[FS613]

L'Chvod HaRav:

 

When Hashem set up Jewish marriage as He did,

 

with the man saying the "Haray At Mikudeshess" to marry a woman, and the "Haray At Muteress" to divorce a woman;

 

didn't Hashem know that in the future, C"V some abusive men would refuse to give a Get, thereby C"V trapping a woman in an abusive marriage, as an Aguna, when she wants to leave the marriage?

Or that if a Jewish man disappears or runs away, the wife has no way of knowing whether or not he is dead, and she's left as an Aguna?

Why would He have set up Jewish marriage in such a way?

I'm just trying to understand the process, not trying to dispute or disparage the Torah, C"V.

 

Thank you.

[Rabbi Shapiro]

L'Chvod HaRav:

 

When Hashem set up Jewish marriage as He did,

 

with the man saying the "Haray At Mikudeshess" to marry a woman, and the "Haray At Muteress" to divorce a woman;

 

didn't Hashem know that in the future, C"V some abusive men would refuse to give a Get, thereby C"V trapping a woman in an abusive marriage, as an Aguna, when she wants to leave the marriage?

Or that if a Jewish man disappears or runs away, the wife has no way of knowing whether or not he is dead, and she's left as an Aguna?

Why would He have set up Jewish marriage in such a way?

I'm just trying to understand the process, not trying to dispute or disparage the Torah, C"V.

 

Thank you.

When G-d created guns and bullets, didn't He know that people would murder?

 

G-d could have created people with bullet proof skin, right? But you'd never ask why He didn't do that.

 

So too, a husband who enchains his wife by withholding a Get is using a gun to shoot someone.

 

The laws of the Torah are not arbitrary. They follow rules of nature the same way physical laws do. It's just that this nature is of the spiritual, not the physical. In other words, when someone gets married he is creating a reality of nature, that permits the woman to her husband and prohibits her to others. When the husband gives her a Get he is creating a reality that undoes that.

 

When a husband takes chains and locks his wife in a dungeon, he is creating a physical reality that does not allow the wife to escape. You would never ask why Hashem set up reality like that. So too when a person locks his wife away as an Agunah, he is taking advantage of the laws of reality the way Hashem created them, and preventing his wife from remarrying. That is not arbitrary. That is a rule of the spiritual reality of the world.

[Chaim613]

Why did some women in Jewish history put on tefillin (albeit privately)? How do we even know about it....like Fazonia, the Ohr HaChaim's first wife, and the "maid of ludamir" ?

 

thank you

[Rabbi Shapiro]

How do we even know about it?

 

 

We don't.

 

And the behavior of the so-called Maiden of Ludmir, by the way, does not constitute a precedent for anything. 

[FS613]

So those persons who say that Michal bas Shaul, wife of Dovid HaMelech, and Rashi's daughters, and Bruria, the wife of Rabbi Meir, put on Tefillin, are only repeating "myths" that have no basis?

 

Rabbi, I'm asking because there are those of the "Reform" who say that because of the above,

 

it's allowed for women to wear Tefillin and Tallis, because it's not forbidden by Halacha;

 

and I'd like to know how to answer them back and to counter their reasoning.

 

Thank you.

[Chaim613]

Who was she? Why do the women of the wall and company always bring up a certain handfull of women that put on tefillin? Like I asked in the "Jewishness" section about patrilineal descent....where do they get this stuff....is it really pulled out of thin air?

[Rabbi Shapiro]

Who was she? Why do the women of the wall and company always bring up a certain handfull of women that put on tefillin? Like I asked in the "Jewishness" section about patrilineal descent....where do they get this stuff....is it really pulled out of thin air?

The Maiden of Ludmir? Her name was Chana Rachel Webermacher. Her behavior was not accepted by the Torah authorities of the time (and she had no husband to "approve" of her actions), and there has been much feminist myth-making around her. This book, for example, is mostly made-up fiction, and most of that, ex nihilo. The author admitted that he made stuff up and put it in the book, saying he never claimed the book had only true information (!).

 

Yes, it is pulled out of thin air, but little by little. The trajectory would go something like, first, someone will say a certain woman was choshuv. Then they'll say she learned Torah with her husband. Then they'll say that she learned Gemora with him. Then they'll say she learned Kabbalah with him. Then they'll say she learned it on her own. Then they'll say she taught her husband....

 

It works like that. And the motives are obvious. And it's not limited to feminists.

[Rabbi Shapiro]

So those persons who say that Michal bas Shaul, wife of Dovid HaMelech, and Rashi's daughters, and Bruria, the wife of Rabbi Meir, put on Tefillin, are only repeating "myths" that have no basis?

 

Rabbi, I'm asking because there are those of the "Reform" who say that because of the above,

 

it's allowed for women to wear Tefillin and Tallis, because it's not forbidden by Halacha;

 

and I'd like to know how to answer them back and to counter their reasoning.

 

Thank you.

 

First, don't bother arguing with them. אבל ישראל לא דפקר טפי

 

But if it comes up, ask them where they got their information from. That should end the discussion.

 

The entire argument, is, coming from them, comical. They don't care what Rashi says but they bring a proof from his daughters? Please. Like I said, don't bother with them. If they were interested in doing things because of sources they wouldn't be Reform to begin with.

[Chaim613]

Before the ezras nashim was created during the second beis hamkdosh where did the women go? Did they not come? Were they intermingled? How did it work practically?

[taon]

There was still an area called, i think, ezras nashim, and the men would stay outside it. The balcony was added later on.

[ilavHashem]

Why is this that when it mentions Chava giving birth...it says "es" to include the twin/triplet sisters of kayin and hevel

but does not mention their names? is it because -like other things that are not told to us in the Torah- irrelevant 

If it is irrelevant to mention the first females ever born is that saying something about the Torah's opinion of females? -everything in the Torah has a clear plan and purpose after all, it can't just be arbitrary...

[taon]

I asked a Rabbi, and he went through various examples explaining why the names that are included are important. Basically, if it doesnt involve genealogy, a specific story, it's not listed, the only exceptions being descendants of the avos to show Hashem's love for them. Rav Hirsch has a lot on how the names listed in genealogies reflect their generation.

 

I still agree that it's strange. Perhaps it's to hide the fact that the first people born engaged in incest, and we are all born from that? I have a vague recollection of something similar where an (undeserved) shame is hidden in the pesukim, i might be thinking of Moshe's grandson or someone's birth. I would like to know, if you can find out, why this is.

[Morgenstern]

@Taon:Where does it say that Moshe rabenu's grandson did something shameful?
 

[taon]

bava basra 109