12 replies to this topic

[foncused]

Hello Rabbi,

First, let me start out by thanking you for this wonderful site. I have not read through it all, but it seems to be a very valuable resource for people like me, who are constantly bothered and deeply unstable because of the many questions and doubts about life, it's meaning, and the endless mystery that surrounds it.

I have watched your video where you explain the basics of Muchrach HaMetzius. I really enjoyed it. I wish you had more videos like that (maybe there are, but I'm just not aware of them).

From what I understood, you are explaining that the existence of Hashem, the First Cause, is required by our logic.

This is all sound and great, but that's as far as it goes. Logic tells us that the world must have a creator. It also tells us that this creator must be outside of time and space, which are a creation themselves.

As you mention, there is no way for a person to visualize or imagine what this means. The idea is just out of our boundaries, and we can't fathom it.

I recently stumbled upon the words of Albert Einstein who said the following:

"I'm not an atheist. I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations."

I believe you would agree with the above statement. The human mind is just so limited, and the more you think about it, the more you realize how little we know and how little we are capable of knowing. Just like the famous Rambam which states that the goal of knowledge is to realize our lack of understanding.

Now, since logic tells us that there is a creator, and since it also tells us that this creator is out of our scope, the question arises: How can we now be certain of anything about the creator, beginning with his essence, down to the purpose of creation, and anything that falls out of our scope?

I'm sure you have heard agnosticism (It is actually Agnostic theism that I'm referring to) , which basically states that since we, humans, are too little and too small to understand and grasp what proceeded us, it's best to just say "I don't know" than to make assumptions and speculations.

As I see it, the difference between agnosticism and religion (monotheism) is minuscule. Both parties claim that we, humans, are just too limited to even begin to fathom what's outside our scope. But whereas the agnostic raises his hand in despair saying "I don't know", the religious person starts giving explanations and interpretations about what he does not really know.

In other words: You have greatly claimed the existence of a First Cause, rooted in logic. (Side note: Is logic really logical, or is logic a predetermined way of thinking? Would the now illogical have made perfect sense if, say, we were just programmed in a different way altogether?)

But that's as far as the argument goes. Logic does not tell us anything about the creator, and it does not require a need for any religion at all.

In fact, you hinted in your video this interesting question which should also discuss the essense of what 'belief' is in the first place.

You mentioned the Ran who makes the claim that the Mitzvah of Emuna is not just to believe in the first cause, since this is not about belief but is just logic. So, what he is saying is that something that is proven by logic is not a 'belief'.

'Belief' is about something you can't prove with logic, it's about something you can't see ans witness, yet you still believe in it.

But this raises the question: why do you believe in something? What's the basis for it? If there is no logic, no reason, why would you believe?

As I was thinking about this question, I started feeling uncomfortable.

Watching the world around me, I see so many religions, so many belief systems, and so many opinions and world views.

The believers usually stay in their belief circle. The muslim remains muslim, and the same goes for the christian and so on.

Than it hit me: Am I just like them? Do I cling to my religion just for the same reasons they do?

Oh, that's impossible. I'm Jewish, the Am HaNivchar. "Why would you compare yourself to a 'poosheteh' 'goy'?"

I don't need to write out all the questions that followed, but suffice it to say that I started questioning everything from the top to the botttom, and every basis was under the question mark.

The flow of questions are very much on my mind, and I sometimes wonder if it's possible for a human being to find out the real truth. Sometimes I wonder if, with so many ideas, opinions, worldviews and standpoints, is it possible that there is really just one truth? And, if so, is it possible for a human being to discern what is the real truth?

I would love to get some response, and maybe some really good pointers to start learning the answers to the thousands of questions which bother me.

Thanks.

[taon]

Do you avoid walking into traffic? Do you bother to breathe and eat? We can't understand anything, maybe impacts are safe and air isn't necessary and all the data is wrong. Scientists don't have a good grasp on how gravity works, maybe it doesn't. Maybe.
But who would risk their everything ona maybe maybe chance that everything they know is wrong? Not someone being honest.

[taon]

Rereading my post, I realize it may sound a little like an attack. I didn't mean it in an offensive manner. Just, 1 We don't have certain knowledge of anything 2. Many things we rely upon are out of our scope of knowledge and 3. It makes sense, nor is it possible, to live rejecting anything that doesn't have 100% proof.

Although, why is it out of our scope? These concepts are things that just are.

[foncused]

Do you avoid walking into traffic? Do you bother to breathe and eat? We can't understand anything, maybe impacts are safe and air isn't necessary and all the data is wrong. Scientists don't have a good grasp on how gravity works, maybe it doesn't. Maybe. But who would risk their everything ona maybe maybe chance that everything they know is wrong? Not someone being honest.

I'm not sure what you are trying to tell me here. We, of course, do have 100% proof that if a person would not eat and drink for several days he will eventually die. This is not because I have heard about such a story, but because you feel your body craving food when you are hungry and you don't need to 'believe' in anything that is outside your scope in order to understand that one must maintain his body in order to continue living in it.

I don't know how you compare it to my question about agnosticism.

To rephrase it: Since we don't know much about HaShem, since we know so so little about anything, how is one certain of what's true and what's not.

In other words, if I feel like a tiny part of an infinitely big colorful picture, how can I determine where the real truth lies?

[taon]

Reread the Rav's articles. Equally valid proof right there. It doesn't take any belief to realize nothing in this world causes itself, can cause itself. And everything follows from there.

[Rabbi Shapiro]

I have watched your video where you explain the basics of Muchrach HaMetzius. I really enjoyed it. I wish you had more videos like that (maybe there are, but I'm just not aware of them).

You may like this pamphlet I wrote on the topic. Also, my Sefer Tzeda Laderech (you can download it for free) discusses this in depth. You can get both of them from my first post here.

From what I understood, you are explaining that the existence of Hashem, the First Cause, is required by our logic.
This is all sound and great, but that's as far as it goes

Not at all. See below.

As you mention, there is no way for a person to visualize or imagine what this means. The idea is just out of our boundaries, and we can't fathom it.

It's not just "the idea" of an outside-of-time Creator. Anything outside of our experiences, such as the finiteness of space. But that does not mean we cannot prove it is true or understand it as data. We merely cannot conceptualize what the proven data looks like in real life.

I recently stumbled upon the words of Albert Einstein who said the following:

"I'm not an atheist. I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations."

I believe you would agree with the above statement.

No, I wouldn't. it is true that we cannot fathom how Hashem made the world, because (a) we are incapable of conceptualizing nothingness, and creation was out of nothingness, and (b.) the world itself contains infinite wisdom (Rambam Yesodei HaTorah 2:2) and obviously we are incapable of knowing all of it.

However, our inability to fully understand the laws of nature has nothing to do whatsoever with being an atheist, pantheist, theist, or idol worshiper. Please explain what he means by "the problem involved is too vast for our limited minds" - what problem exactly is he talking about? Einstein (who was no authority in philosophy or theology, nor was he any more objective than any other guy off the street). here tied our inability to completely understand nature to "our attitude toward G-d." But that is only true if you assume that there is nothing else that contributes to our attitude toward G-d except our understanding of nature. And that assumption is false. If you are looking to understand Hashem through mathematical equations then of course he is correct. But that is like saying "A metal detector can tell you some metal is there but it cannot tell you exact details about what it is."

True, but that doesn't mean there are not other means at your disposal to find out. A shovel may help. Our limited understanding of nature only means that we can only figure out so much about the Creator through nature (unless you are Avraham Avinu of course), but it does not mean that we have no other means at our disposal. We do. If science is all you know, you won't know historical facts and if history is all you know, you won't know science. Thinking that the only method of our disposal to find truth is by science is a very bad mistake, See this article, and this one.

In fact, the way we know about Judaism is not through science - it is through history. As in "Mesorah" - see here and here. Looking for Judaism in a science book is like looking for quantum mechanics in a global studies book.

[Rabbi Shapiro]

The human mind is just so limited, and the more you think about it, the more you realize how little we know and how little we are capable of knowing.

Nobody questions this, but it is irrelevant to the topic. Clearly, we are capable of knowing some things. It is also clear that we are incapable of knowing other things. If you didn't think you were capable of knowing things you would not bother to run out of the way of a speeding car.

The question on the table therefore is, is Judaism in the first category or the second? You are just distracting yourself from that issue by loquaciously describing how our minds are limited.

Just like the famous Rambam which states that the goal of knowledge is to realize our lack of understanding.

The Rambam was not the one who said this.

Now, since logic tells us that there is a creator, and since it also tells us that this creator is out of our scope, the question arises: How can we now be certain of anything about the creator, beginning with his essence, down to the purpose of creation, and anything that falls out of our scope?

Why do we need to know anything about the creator's essence? What difference does it make?

About the purpose of creation, what does the purpose of creation have to do with us not knowing anything about the creator's essence? The purpose of creation is not part of the creator's essence. Inability to know one does not mean the inability to know the other.

At this point I feel compelled to point out to you that your last 2 questions, the ones I just quoted above, cannot be your own. Such questions are only questions if you assume that knowing the essence of the Creator is a required element of a religion. Of course it is not. Thinking so indicates a complete lack of understanding of what a religion actually is. And by that I mean anyone who grew up in a frum home would not have such a question on his own. Such a question comes from someone who is not religious, knows little or nothing about religious philosophy (even less than the average frum person), looks at religion from afar and says, "Well religion is all about G-d, and since you know nothing about G-d, how can you have a religion?"

The question is, frankly, a sign of immense ignorance of the topic being discussed.

You cannot possess that level of ignorance, both because you grew up frum as well as from the rest of your question, which indicates you are not toally ignorant about Judaism.

You saw this question on some website or book or heard it from someone. And it sound nice so you internalized it, but it makes no sense at all. Just saying.

Back to the topic at hand. We don't know anything about what Hashem is, but we know what Hashem is not. And we know about how he acts, by observing the patterns of actions that he takes. None of that has to do with his essence. So what?

As far as the purpose of creation, we can reason this as well, as the Seforim of our Rishonim explain. We know that the Creator has no imperfections (if He would then He would have boundaries and attributes), and therefore cannot gain or lose anything. You cannot add to Him nor subtract from Him.

Now after the Creator created the world, there were only 2 things in existence: The Creator and the creation. Therefore, the purpose of creation must have been either:

• For the sake of the Creator
• For the sake of the creations
• For no sake, i.e. there was no purpose

#1 is not possible since the Creator, being intrinsically perfect and also beyond change cannot be impacted by creation

#3 is absurd, especially for a perfect Being
#2 - This is the conclusion: The purpose of creation was for the sake of the creations.

Now "for the sake of the creations" can mean one of two things:

#1 - For the benefit of the creations
#2 - For the detriment of the creations

#2 is illogical because there is no purpose in harming anyone unless someone (usually the person doing the harm) benefits from it (or is insane which is not an option here). And since the Creator cannot benefit from anything, the conclusion is that the purpose of creation was for the benefit of the creations.

Meaning: Hashem created the world in order to do Chesed.

But all of the above is really NOT the way we know the purpose of creation. It is not really worth discussing much, except academically. Again - our knowledge of Judaism is not from science or philosophy (although sometimes the assertions of both are similar or the same). Our knowledge of Judaism is from the Mesorah, and it is from there that we know the purpose of creation.

I'm sure you have heard agnosticism (It is actually Agnostic theism that I'm referring to) , which basically states that since we, humans, are too little and too small to understand and grasp what proceeded us, it's best to just say "I don't know" than to make assumptions and speculations.

The Jewish religion does not make assumptions or speculate about what preceded us. In fact, it is prohibited to do so.(מה לפנים). Does that mean Judaism is Agnostic Theism?

[Rabbi Shapiro]

As I see it, the difference between agnosticism and religion (monotheism) is minuscule. Both parties claim that we, humans, are just too limited to even begin to fathom what's outside our scope. But whereas the agnostic raises his hand in despair saying "I don't know", the religious person starts giving explanations and interpretations about what he does not really know.

I don't know what religion you are talking about, but there are no explanations or interpretations about what we do not know in Judaism. Again, you did not think this thought yourself. It was told to you or you saw ti somewhere. As a frum Jew, I'd like to ask you: Can you give me a single "explanation or interpretation about what we do not really know" in Judaism? Such a statement can only be spawned by the mind of someone that believe in order to be e monotheist you need to have some kind of explanation or interpretation about what preceded us. That is a false statement, and a strawman created by whoever it is that thought of that idea.

(Side note: Is logic really logical, or is logic a predetermined way of thinking? Would the now illogical have made perfect sense if, say, we were just programmed in a different way altogether?)

We can test the accuracy of logic by observing that logical predictions result in the expected conclusions. When there are exceptions, we can determine that they were due to an unknown factor that was not considered during the prediction. All of that means that logic is a reliable way of deriving fact.

(Now of course that is using logic itself but if you question the reliability of logic even on that simple level, you could be right, but you don't suspect that even for a second. You use logic in every facet of your life - like I said - you wouldn't move out of the way of a moving car if you didn't - and to accept the reliability of logic in every area of your life and then suddenly question it when the topic of religion comes up is intellectually deceitful.)

However, just because something seems logical to you does not mean it actually is. You could be making an error in logic, or your judgement could be distorted by a bias or a heuristic or simple intellectual dishonesty.

But that's as far as the argument goes.

That particular argument - the First Cause argument - is not designed to do anything except prove that the world has a creator and various aspects of the Creator (such as above time and space, uncaused, unbounded, not plural, not composite, sentient). But there are other arguments that prove other points.

Logic does not tell us anything about the creator,

It tells us what I cited above. But either way - what's the difference?

and it does not require a need for any religion at all.

Yes, it does. The logic that says the Mesorah is true.

In fact, you hinted in your video this interesting question which should also discuss the essense of what 'belief' is in the first place.

You mentioned the Ran who makes the claim that the Mitzvah of Emuna is not just to believe in the first cause, since this is not about belief but is just logic. So, what he is saying is that something that is proven by logic is not a 'belief'.
'Belief' is about something you can't prove with logic, it's about something you can't see ans witness, yet you still believe in it. But this raises the question: why do you believe in something? What's the basis for it? If there is no logic, no reason, why would you believe?

What I said "hinted" at no such thing, because if that is your definition of "belief" then Judaism has nothing to do with "beliefs". Emunah is not belief. Emunah means "unwavering." As in וידיו של משה היו אמונה לשמים or the word נאמן which means reliable. You are, once again, taking non-Jewish concepts (in this case "belief") and projecting it on to Judaism, when Judaism has no such concepts.

Furthermore, it says nowhere in the Torah, even, that we have to have Emunah. It says, instead, Anochi Hashem Elokecha - a fact:
I am Hashem." It is from there that we derive the Mitzvah of Emunah. Clearly, the fact that the Torah told this to us in this manner, tells us that this is the degree of surety that we are supposed to have. A statement of fact.

Furthermore, if you look in the Rambam (and other Seforim as well) you will find that our obligation is not merely Emunah, but "Yediah" as well Yediah means to "know." But not just to know - to know intimately. In a sensory manner.

The differences between Emunah and Yediah are complicated (see my footnote #4 in this sefer). But the way you describe "belief" - that is neither Emunah nor Yediah, and it is NOT what Judaism professes.

The Ran that I cited says that when Hashem introduced Himself He did not say merely "Hashem exists" because they knew that already - through their logic. Instead, He said "I am Hashem" meaning, I, Who just took you out of Egypt, I am the G-d you know exists." That does not mean there is no basis to believe that. On the contrary - Hashem just told it to all of them, which is a pretty good "reason" to "believe." All the Ran is saying is that Hashem had no need to tell them the obvious, which His existence was. Instead, He told them that it was Hashem the Creator Who took them out of Egypt, as opposed to an angel or anything else.

That does not mean there is no reason to accept it.

As I was thinking about this question, I started feeling uncomfortable. Watching the world around me, I see so many religions, so many belief systems, and so many opinions and world views. The believers usually stay in their belief circle. The muslim remains muslim, and the same goes for the christian and so on. Than it hit me: Am I just like them? Do I cling to my religion just for the same reasons they do?

If you are, then you are not fulfilling your religion.

Oh, that's impossible. I'm Jewish, the Am HaNivchar. "Why would you compare yourself to a 'poosheteh' 'goy'?"

Nobody says it is impossible. It is possible that the reason you believe your religion is the same reason that the Goyim believe theirs. That does not mean there are not other reasons available to you.

We all have Bechirah, and our Seforim tell us that a person can proactively confuse himself so much that he can cause himself to lose any semblance of Emunah that he might have, despite all the good reasons to believe. A person can also simply choose not to believe. But everyone agrees that a person can mess himself up and end up, well, funcuzed.

The Yismach Moshe (quoting Alshich I believe) and Rav Elchonon in Kovetz Maamarim both say that the MItzvah of Emunah means to stay objective. Meaning, not to bias yourself by subjecting yourself to influences of dubious reliability. In other words, if you read anti-religion literature, you cannot blame anyone if you suddenly see your judgement tainted.

It's like if you're on a jury. Nobody is asking you to be the most brilliant detective or analyst of facts or even more astute than the average (or even less than average) person. But we do require you to make sure to remain objective and base your opinion on the evidence and only the evidence. If you read a newspaper article about the case, you are not longer qualified to have an objective opinion. We throw you off the jury.

Same thing with Emunah. The Torah requires that we be honest and ruthlessly objective. But reading books written by people with slanted thinking or incorrect facts (such as the statements above about religion needing to know the essence of G-d or the deriving the purpose of creation from logic), will cause you to be confused, and maybe even think that Judaism is a "belief system," in the sense that a "belief" is something you believe without a reason.

And of course, even if a person does not pursue "newspaper articles about the case", this particular jury is judging itself - whether they are obligated to fulfill the Torah, whether they are bound to Hashem's word. That means we start off with a vested interest. The Mitzvah of Emunah is to overcome that vested interest and to be intellectually honest with ourselves. It is just the opposite of how you described it. it is not that the Torah asks us to believe something without any reason - the Torah asks us not to follow our vested interests but rather to be intellectually honest, and to protect our minds the way a Chazal would protect his voice, or a pianist would protect his hands.

Objectivity and intellectual honesty is all Jewish "Emunah" requires.

I would love to get some response, and maybe some really good pointers to start learning the answers to the thousands of questions which bother me.

Good for you!

First pointer: learn about Judaism FROM JUDAISM. Not from foreign sources of dubious knowledge that present their version of Judaism or religion. You will save yourself a lot of funcusion that way.

If you can, can you please give me a basic quick rundown of your quesitons. Not thousands, but maybe a dozen or so? The reason I ask is because I'd like to point you in the direction of material that will help you (besides me doing what I can), and in order to do that I need to know what type of questions we are talking about.

But just based on what you wrote here, I would highly recommend three books by Rav Avigdor Miller: Awake My Glory, Rejoice O Youth, and Sing You Righteous. They directly address the issues you have mentioned here.

[foncused]

First, thanks so so much for taking the time to respond to my questions. It really means very very much to me.

Before going any further, I just want to clarify my intentions, since I believe you might have made some assumptions about myself and the questions I ask.

I would also like to apologize for dumping lots of questions in a very 'foncused' form without much order. I hope this clears some of the mumble jumble.

As I already mentioned, I was raised in a very Frum and Chassidish family, and I still live in that circle.

Although I never shed my garb, and I never left my community, still my heart and soul did go through some changes over the years. As I grew up and got older, I always had lots of questions. I always wondered why other people don't have those questions, just living life and going through it without being aware of the extreme wonder it is. I don't actually really envy the people who don't ask questions, although I wish I would have such inner peace as they do.

As I watched the world around me, I would always wonder what's the purpose of this whole phenomena, the phenomena of life which to me is the greatest mystery. Thinking about it I just feel like 'wow', being sometimes just overwhelmed with how amazing it is, and how deep it really is. The idea of being aware about your perception and observing just the fact of being alive is an amazing experience.

The "questions" I'm referring to are not just technical and logical, but are much more emotional, running deep from brain to heart and into my being, affecting my whole outlook on the world and my mood....

Questions like "How real is this world?" and "Is there a way to measure how real something is? An absolute reality?", "What is the real truth?", "Is there one single real truth, or is truth unique to it's beholder, thereby allowing multiple truths?"

I would sometimes find my thoughts being discussed already, as was the case when I found a Wikipedia page about the topic which bothered me, finding that it has a name already "Brain in a Vat" and the "Dream Argument".

This also lead me to questions if Logic is really logical, or is it not. Isn't it possible that logic is just a way of thinking that makes great sense to us, because of the way we are created and wired, but in 'reality' (a question by itself...) logic might make no sense, or perhaps the idea of making sense is just something that makes sense to us, but perhaps 'sense' is nowhere to be found in the 'real reality'.

These questions might sound crazy, I know. But once you realize how 'funny' and interesting this world is, and once you realize that the existence of the world around you is 'reality' just because your perception of it, you start questioning where the bigger picture lies, trying to find a frame of reference, and something that's absolute and concrete.

The sad part of the story is that I know very well I can't answer the questions, but the happy part of it all is that I can't answer these questions.... Meaning, the realization of my own limits, and the nothingness of the human being, which brought back the idea of how little we truly are and how we can't go out of the boundaries in which we are. It is the realization that I truly might be a brain in a vat, and there is no way of going out of the vat I'm in; the idea that I know nothing about my own essence which is 'life'.

One of the great questions which bothered me all along was the meaning of life and its purpose. In the beginning I would question if there is a logical need for meaning in life, or not. I asked myself: "If you were to find out that there actually is no meaning in life, would that mean at attempt at suicide?", but my response was "No, I would probably just live life the way I do, and I would try to enjoy it as much possible".

But the idea of living life just for enjoyment was not sitting well with me. As I was observing the world, I saw that a great percentage of people actually live according to the above philosophy (or probably a lack of any philosophy....), trying to run after the enjoyments of life, money, cars, food, etc. and they are always trying to enjoy more and more.

I would always try to imagine myself at the age of 120, lying on the deathbed, moments before leaving this world, and I would try to ask myself if I'm happy with the life I lived or do I believe it was in vain.

As I would imagine the above, I was certain that living a life with no meaning would be such a sad story to me. Enjoyments are all great at the moment, but they are temporary and don't carry any meaning. Is it possible for me to live life just for the moments happiness? Living without meaning would imply there is no meaning in the existence of the world, and it's all just in vain. What's the point?

I started feeling like a walking Koheles... But without the last few verses... I would try to find meaning, reason, but I could not find it.

Looking around, I was seeing people busying themselves with so many things, but it all looked pointless and comical. What's the point in all this?

And the more I thought about it, the less I started to see the enjoyment in the things considered enjoyable to most. Of course, every human has his physical inclinations, and there is no person who can claim not enjoying the physical enjoyments, but the more I saw the emptiness and the void of meaning, the less attractive it became.

But, again, it was all questions and no answers.
Of course, I was thinking about how religion can give the answer to all my questions. I had a feeling the answer must be right at home, and I started to think about how the answer to all my questions must be in Judaism, but I still had no idea how to put the puzzle together.

I was, of course, aware that according to our Mesorah, the ultimate meaning in this world is in serving HaShem. Great! But how does this answer the question? What is the meaning in serving Hashem? I would still ask "What's the point?"

I would assume that the ultimate meaning of life must be tied to the meaning of the universe. But what is it?

As I'm writing this, I still try to figure out the answer, and I'm slowly learning and trying to find the real path, the path which will give me peace and meaning, happiness and light.

Now, let me begin replying to your response.

it is true that we cannot fathom how Hashem made the world, because (a) we are incapable of conceptualizing nothingness, and creation was out of nothingness, and (b.) the world itself contains infinite wisdom (Rambam Yesodei HaTorah 2:2) and obviously we are incapable of knowing all of it.

However, our inability to fully understand the laws of nature has nothing to do whatsoever with being an atheist, pantheist, theist, or idol worshiper. Please explain what he means by "the problem involved is too vast for our limited minds" - what problem exactly is he talking about? Einstein (who was no authority in philosophy or theology, nor was he any more objective than any other guy off the street). here tied our inability to completely understand nature to "our attitude toward G-d." But that is only true if you assume that there is nothing else that contributes to our attitude toward G-d except our understanding of nature. And that assumption is false. If you are looking to understand Hashem through mathematical equations then of course he is correct. But that is like saying "A metal detector can tell you some metal is there but it cannot tell you exact details about what it is."

True, but that doesn't mean there are not other means at your disposal to find out. A shovel may help. Our limited understanding of nature only means that we can only figure out so much about the Creator through nature (unless you are Avraham Avinu of course), but it does not mean that we have no other means at our disposal. We do. If science is all you know, you won't know historical facts and if history is all you know, you won't know science. Thinking that the only method of our disposal to find truth is by science is a very bad mistake, See this article, and this one.

In fact, the way we know about Judaism is not through science - it is through history. As in "Mesorah" - see here and here. Looking for Judaism in a science book is like looking for quantum mechanics in a global studies book.

The way I read Einstein's words is that he is basically stating the fact that no human can conceive of the creator, something everyone would agree on. When he said that "the problem involved is too vast for our limited minds", he probably meant to say that it's out of our scope. The 'problem', in this case, means the 'question'. So, in other words, he is saying that the question involved in figuring out how everything and anything came into being is too vast for our limited minds. It's because our minds and it's thinking are part of the creation, part of the question, and our minds are limited, where we can't understand what preceded us.

You are basically stating the same. But you are saying that we know Hashem not by observing the world, but by other means, which is Mesorah. Great. So we shall discuss Mesorah, in a bit.

Why do we need to know anything about the creator's essence? What difference does it make?

About the purpose of creation, what does the purpose of creation have to do with us not knowing anything about the creator's essence? The purpose of creation is not part of the creator's essence? Inability to know one does not mean the inability to know the other.

The question was simple: if the human mind can't know anything 'outside' this world, and the only thing it can conclude by its logic is only the fact that a creator exists, how can the human mind decide on anything besides the existence of Hashem? How can I know which path is the right one? If all I know is that Hashem exists, it does not imply the rest of Judaism or any religion (LeHavdil). It does not imply 'why we are here' and so on. Deism holds true the existence of a deity and that's the end of the story. It's not a religion, just logical conclusions.

At this point I feel compelled to point out to you that your last 2 questions, the ones I just quoted above, cannot be your own. Such questions are only questions if you assume that knowing the essence of the Creator is a required element of a religion. Of course it is not. Thinking so indicates a complete lack of understanding of what a religion actually is. And by that I mean anyone who grew up in a frum home would not have such a question on his own. Such a question comes from someone who is not religious, knows little or nothing about religious philosophy (even less than the average frum person), looks at religion from afar and says, "Well religion is all about G-d, and since you know nothing about G-d, how can you have a religion?"

The question is, frankly, a sign of immense ignorance of the topic being discussed.

You cannot possess that level of ignorance, both because you grew up frum as well as from the rest of your question, which indicates you are not toally ignorant about Judaism.

You saw this question on some website or book or heard it from someone. And it sound nice so you internalized it, but it makes no sense at all. Just saying.

Back to the topic at hand. We don't know anything about what Hashem is, but we know what Hashem is not. And we know about how he acts, by observing the patterns of actions that he takes. None of that has to do with his essence. So what?

As far as the purpose of creation, we can reason this as well, as the Seforim of our Rishonim explain. We know that the Creator has no imperfections (if He would then He would have boundaries and attributes), and therefore cannot gain or lose anything. You cannot add to Him nor subtract from Him.

Now after the Creator created the world, there were only 2 things in existence: The Creator and the creation. Therefore, the purpose of creation must have been either:

• For the sake of the Creator
• For the sake of the creations
• For no sake, i.e. there was no purpose

#1 is not possible since the Creator, being intrinsically perfect and also beyond change cannot be impacted by creation

#3 is absurd, especially for a perfect Being
#2 - This is the conclusion: The purpose of creation was for the sake of the creations.

Now "for the sake of the creations" can mean one of two things:

#1 - For the benefit of the creations
#2 - For the detriment of the creations

#2 is illogical because there is no purpose in harming anyone unless someone (usually the person doing the harm) benefits from it (or is insane which is not an option here). And since the Creator cannot benefit from anything, the conclusion is that the purpose of creation was for the benefit of the creations.

Meaning: Hashem created the world in order to do Chesed.

But all of the above is really NOT the way we know the purpose of creation. It is not really worth discussing much, except academically. Again - our knowledge of Judaism is not from science or philosophy (although sometimes the assertions of both are similar or the same). Our knowledge of Judaism is from the Mesorah, and it is from there that we know the purpose of creation.

Alright, so it actually all boils down to Mesorah in the end.

But here I have a problem, because Mesorah can't be proven, and I'm sure you are aware of the fact that other religions have different Mesorahs. History, by its nature, is something which cannot be proven and is sometimes not accurate.

The other question is: What is included in Mesorah and what's not? There were so many different opinions within the Jewish nation over the years, with many different approaches. Now, how would anyone know what's actually right?

I don't know what religion you are talking about, but there are no explanations or interpretations about what we do not know in Judaism. Again, you did not think this thought yourself. It was told to you or you saw ti somewhere. As a frum Jew, I'd like to ask you: Can you give me a single "explanation or interpretation about what we do not really know" in Judaism? Such a statement can only be spawned by the mind of someone that believe in order to be e monotheist you need to have some kind of explanation or interpretation about what preceded us. That is a false statement, and a strawman created by whoever it is that thought of that idea.

Again, what I meant here is that the existence of Hashem does not logically imply any religion. It's just like you said, that the reason for all we now do is because of Mesorah. If that's the case, than we have no disagreement, and we both can agree that our religion (the 613 mitzvos etc) is not a product of logic but tradition.

What I said "hinted" at no such thing, because if that is your definition of "belief" then Judaism has nothing to do with "beliefs". Emunah is not belief. Emunah means "unwavering." As in וידיו של משה היו אמונה לשמים or the word נאמן which means reliable. You are, once again, taking non-Jewish concepts (in this case "belief") and projecting it on to Judaism, when Judaism has no such concepts.

Furthermore, it says nowhere in the Torah, even, that we have to have Emunah. It says, instead, Anochi Hashem Elokecha - a fact:
I am Hashem." It is from there that we derive the Mitzvah of Emunah. Clearly, the fact that the Torah told this to us in this manner, tells us that this is the degree of surety that we are supposed to have. A statement of fact.

Furthermore, if you look in the Rambam (and other Seforim as well) you will find that our obligation is not merely Emunah, but "Yediah" as well Yediah means to "know." But not just to know - to know intimately. In a sensory manner.

The differences between Emunah and Yediah are complicated (see my footnote #4 in this sefer). But the way you describe "belief" - that is neither Emunah nor Yediah, and it is NOT what Judaism professes.

The Ran that I cited says that when Hashem introduced Himself He did not say merely "Hashem exists" because they knew that already - through their logic. Instead, He said "I am Hashem" meaning, I, Who just took you out of Egypt, I am the G-d you know exists." That does not mean there is no basis to believe that. On the contrary - Hashem just told it to all of them, which is a pretty good "reason" to "believe." All the Ran is saying is that Hashem had no need to tell them the obvious, which His existence was. Instead, He told them that it was Hashem the Creator Who took them out of Egypt, as opposed to an angel or anything else.

I'm glad to learn this, for I despise 'belief' by itself. I'm hungry than to learn what Emunah really is.

We all have Bechirah, and our Seforim tell us that a person can proactively confuse himself so much that he can cause himself to lose any semblance of Emunah that he might have, despite all the good reasons to believe. A person can also simply choose not to believe. But everyone agrees that a person can mess himself up and end up, well, funcuzed.

The Yismach Moshe (quoting Alshich I believe) and Rav Elchonon in Kovetz Maamarim both say that the MItzvah of Emunah means to stay objective. Meaning, not to bias yourself by subjecting yourself to influences of dubious reliability. In other words, if you read anti-religion literature, you cannot blame anyone if oyu suddenly see your judgement tainted.

It's like if you're on a jury. Nobody is asking you to be the most brilliant detective or analyst of facts or even more astute than the average (or even less than average) person. But we do require you to make sure to remain objective and base your opinion on the evidence and only the evidence. If you read a newspaper article about the case, you are not longer qualified to have an objective opinion. We throw you off the jury.

Same thing with Emunah. The Torah requires that we be honest and ruthlessly objective. But reading books written by people with slanted thinking or incorrect facts (such as the statements above about religion needing to know the essence of G-d or the deriving the purpose of creation from logic), will cause you to be confused, and maybe even think that Judaism is a "belief system," in the sense that a "belief" is something you believe without a reason.

And of course, even if a person does not pursue "newspaper articles about the case", this particular jury is judging itself - whether they are obligated to fulfill the Torah, whether they are bound to Hashem's word. That means we start off with a vested interest. The Mitzvah of Emunah is to overcome that vested interest and to be intellectually honest with ourselves. It is just the opposite of how you described it. it is not that the Torah asks us to believe something without any reason - the Torah asks us not to follow our vested interests but rather to be intellectually honest, and to protect our minds the way a Chazal would protect his voice, or a pianist would protect his hands.

Objectivity and intellectual honesty is all Jewish "Emunah" requires.

Yeah, I know what you mean, but should I feel guilty for having such questions?

I am not running around trying to look for new questions. I rather ponder the questions I have, trying to find answers.

Yes, I have tried to look into various places in order to see what they offer. Let me be honest and say that I even looked into atheism, and I'm glad I found it to be such nonsense. I do feel that 'sense' lies here at home, and not far out away. I just need to rediscover it, and not take it for granted, because I refuse to live an auto-pilot life. I can't allow myself to do something without realizing what it is. I hope finding meaning will make life more enjoyable.

First pointer: learn about Judaism FROM JUDAISM. Not from foreign sources of dubious knowledge that present their version of Judaism or religion. You will save yourself a lot of funcusion that way.

If you can, can you please give me a basic quick rundown of your quesitons. Not thousands, but maybe a dozen or so? The reason I ask is because I'd like to point you in the direction of material that will help you (besides me doing what I can), and in order to do that I need to know what type of questions we are talking about.

But just based on what you wrote here, I would highly recommend three books by Rav Avigdor Miller: Awake My Glory, Rejoice O Youth, and Sing You Righteous. They directly address the issues you have mentioned here.

Again, please don't assume that I don't do so.

I actually have started reading some of the books you mentioned, and it's amazing. I will check out the others.

I have lately bought some Sforim by the Ramchal, a Kuzari, and some others.

As I said many times, I do have a feeling that the truth is in Judaism. But still, I have to find it. I have to dust it off. Judaism as lip service, as something you do without knowing why and how, is boring and outright not-enjoyable at all. It would be very hard for me to live according to the Torah without first realizing what's the point behind it. It would be a mere restriction on life and I would not be able to cling to it for too long.

I hope the day comes when I find the real light, the light to discern truth from false, the ability to feel at ease and in peace with the truth I find.

[foncused]

Just read your article here http://www.baismedra...-of-scientists/ and I just wanted to shout out real loud THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!! Great great article.

[Rabbi Shapiro]

As I already mentioned, I was raised in a very Frum and Chassidish family

I know. You wrote "a 'poosheteh' 'goy'" with a Chasidish accent.

The question was simple: if the human mind can't know anything 'outside' this world, and the only thing it can conclude by its logic is only the fact that a creator exists, how can the human mind decide on anything besides the existence of Hashem? How can I know which path is the right one? If all I know is that Hashem exists, it does not imply the rest of Judaism or any religion (LeHavdil). It does not imply 'why we are here' and so on. Deism holds true the existence of a deity and that's the end of the story. It's not a religion, just logical conclusions.

I am not understanding your question. If Hashem HImself came to you and gave you the Torah and told you "This is the Derech," would you understand what is right? Even though "the human mind can't know anything 'outside' this world," right? So if you were to accept that once upon a time Hashem did give the Torah, you would accept Judaism as truth, right?

If that's the case, than we have no disagreement, and we both can agree that our religion (the 613 mitzvos etc) is not a product of logic but tradition.

Who in the world would ever say that Judaism can be ... reasoned? By humans? Yes, Avraham did it, but on the contrary - Judaism comes from Hashem. It is not man-made. I am not sure why you think it is necessary to even discuss this.

I was, of course, aware that according to our Mesorah, the ultimate meaning in this world is in serving HaShem. Great! But how does this answer the question? What is the meaning in serving Hashem? I would still ask "What's the point?"

Well, no, that's not the answer. The answer is (and I explained above how we know this) Hashem created the world in order to bestow pleasure. See here. I'd recommend that you read the Fundamentals Of Judaism section at the top of the home page. I wrote those pieces because we need to know the basics before we can go further.

Alright, so it actually all boils down to Mesorah in the end.
But here I have a problem, because Mesorah can't be proven,

Says you. Please see this and this. And it's not just that. There's more, but this is a start.

[Rabbi Shapiro]

and I'm sure you are aware of the fact that other religions have different Mesorahs.

Not so. You are confusing Mesorah with history. Please see the 2 links I posted above.

History, by its nature, is something which cannot be proven

Why? Juries convict people of crimes because they are satisfied that the prosecution has proven his case beyond a reasonable doubt. Yet the crime is in fact an historical event. It may even have taken place many years ago. While it is true that you cannot put history in a test tube and add a chemical to see what happens, in all aspect of our lives we consider things proven based on the weight of evidence. That includes whether a given event happened or not.

and is sometimes not accurate.

In those cases you'd find the defendant innocent. In other cases you'd have no doubt it is accurate.

Yeah, I know what you mean, but should I feel guilty for having such questions?

No. You should only feel guilty for not looking for proper answers, or for willfully not accepting them when they arrive.

The other question is: What is included in Mesorah and what's not? There were so many different opinions within the Jewish nation over the years, with many different approaches. Now, how would anyone know what's actually right?

The same way we know how anything is right despite varying opinions. You weigh the evidence. Sometimes finding the truth is difficult; sometimes it is easy. In the case of Judaism it is not difficult at all.

But -- you have to know things. Someone who knows nothing about biology and medicine, let's say, will not be able to tell the difference between a real doctor and a witch doctor. He will say "How do I know whose opinion is right?" Knowledge is power. The more you know about anything the more you are able to identify the truth about it. Same thing with Judaism.

I can't allow myself to do something without realizing what it is. I hope finding meaning will make life more enjoyable.

One word of advice: Don't look for answers that will make life more meaningful or enjoyable. Look for answers that are true. Meaningful and enjoyable does not always mean true. Meaningful and enjoyable are relative terms, subject to fulfilling certain emotional needs within the individual. What can do that may be very false, and also very unhealthy. While it is indeed a fact that Torah makes life meaningful, pursuing "meaning" in life may lead you in any which direction. If you pursue truth, your pursuit will lead you to Torah.

I have lately bought some Sforim by the Ramchal, a Kuzari, and some others.

They are all great.

[shaya]

wheww, from a readers perspective, no need to copy the WHOLE convo from previous post just to answer a little blip, makes it hard to read through, just saying.
it is so very true that people start from the end and try to figure it all out, its very hard for a student of medicine to achieve his goal without learning and studying hard on the very topic, imagine a student approach his professor with questions regarding the study and sees the student doesnt have the basics,
mainly thanks to this site i have learned that all kashes and arguments against religion is blabble, people are blabbling around, feeding off of each other, not knowing what they are talking about, they see an article, they see a blog and they try to run with it, from experience (and i dont have all the answers either) i just dismiss them and go on my way.
here is a piece from the bais halevi addressing this:

אדרבה כל המינות שלהם בא להם ע״י אמונה, שראם באיזו
ספר דברי מינות הגם שהכותב היה בור ריק גם משכל
האנושי, והוא מאמין לכל דבריו וסומך עליו כסומא
בארובה לכפור בתוה״ק ונמצא הכפירה באה להם ע״י
אמונתם וכפתי מאמין לכל דבריו הכוזבים,

http://hebrewbooks.o...068&st&pgnum=44