16 replies to this topic

[flybird]

Everyone always says that homosexuals are bad (according to judiasm), but no one ever says why. Okay, I know the whole thing with pru u'rvu, but then thats baisically saying that people who are single are also bad, because they should just get married so they have kids.
For the people who are bi, I understand more, because they can chose to have a normal marrige. But for people who are completely gay, I dont see why they cant be. Its not there fault- they were born like that.
I know people who are homosexuals, and they want to keep the torah, but then the whole frum community doesnt accept them. No one is perfect at every single mitzvah, so if this is one mitzvah that's very hard for them to keep, I dont see why people cant consider them religious.
Can anyone explain to me why the torah thinks that homosexuality is bad?

[shifpifer1]

Its an abomination to be homosexual. Some opinions say that the mabal started because gay was so common. Hashem wanted to start the world over for such a reason you described. No, people who are single are not "bad" and Judaism doesn't view people who are single as sinners. The culture that has surrounded us has been throwing at us the solution that we have to "accept" gay people. An even better question is why do we have to accept gays? Most importantly why is a persons orientation have to be him? Oh i am straight and it is the most defining factor about me! Meshugana! People who are gay are transgressing a tremendous issur daarayissa! My belief, ( I am being honest and completely unpoliticaly correct) is that every person has a choice, and I think that people have a choice to be gay. The point is that the Torah is our guide to life and if Hashem wants us his children to do something or not we have to listen because it's His world. In essence, a persons body isn't even his, he is borrowing it from Hashem yishborach and he has to take care of it properly until the day he dies, if a Jew is struggling with this test of being gay, he has to plead that his creator take away this evil desire that has overtaken him. Yes it is an evil desire, just as it would be ( not the same don't lose me here) as wanting to be with an animal. If a person wants to try and learn the reason and take a different path as Jew, Hashem will help him.

[danceInTheRain]

as far as I'm aware(which is not much) the halachik issue is mishkav zachar which is assur and not just the fact that they do not bring children into the world.
as far as the frum world not eccepting them- these people are just like anybody else who gives into their urges. let it be premarital relationships, driving on shabbos or eating pork for all i care. you say thats the way they were born and i want to tell you thats the way we were all born. we all have big urges we are obligated to stand against.
the frum world does not accept people who say" i will keep the whole torah besides for one thing"
the frum world DOES eccept people who are HONESTLY working on themselves and trying to be better even if they fall sometimes.
so yes, people who are gay have a great temptation, BUT we all have temptations we could give into BUT THATS NOT LIFE. life is about fighting temptation. not easy but doable and worth it.

[shifpifer1]

I like ur answer dance in the rain, so true.

[FS613]

Practicing homosexuality is C"V violating the Torah, which is explicit in the condemnation of the practice of homosexuality and calls it an Abomination.

Being single means that someone is still waiting to meet his wife or her husband and IY"H wants to get married and IY"H produce a family.

How can the two be compared?

If kleptomaniacs have an urge to steal, and pyromaniacs have an urge to set fires,

should we just say, "They were born that way," and allow them to do whatever they want to do?

[smillingirl]

I was just going to ask the same thing.

[flybird]

thank you so much guys for responding ok, so I understand now why the frum world doesnt accept them, but I still dont get why being gay is bad
thanx

[Rabbi Shapiro]

thank you so much guys for responding ok, so I understand now why the frum world doesnt accept them, but I still dont get why being gay is bad
thanx

"Being" whatever is not bad, but "doing" whatever certainly is.

Perhaps we cannot always choose what we are but we can choose what we do.

Therefore:

1) If someone has this Yezter Horah, if he did not choose it, it does not make him good or bad. It just makes him subject to a very big Nisayon.

2) If he tries to fight his Yetzer Horah then he is to be commended for doing so. If at times the Yetzer gets the best of him, he realizes that sometimes that happens, we sin, but tomorrow is another day and he gets up and returns to his battle. How bad is he if he does not always beat the Yetzer, and how much reward he gets for defeating it, are measured by the rule לפום צערא אגרא, and as far as judging such a person, we are adjured אל תדין את חבריך עד שתגיע למקומו. Nobody has anything but Rachmanus on those who are given such a difficult Yetzer Horah, and we are rooting for them to overcome it, thereby bringing down on themselves and all the universe the bounty of Hashem.

3) However, if he does not look at his situation as in #2 above, but rather, he flaunts his Yezter Horah, demanding that he be allowed to practice it as he pleases and be accepted as an equal into the community, then he is bad. Not merely because of the Aveirah that he is doing but because he is disagreeing with the Torah. That is worse than the Aveirah itself. If someone speeds, and he goes before the judge and pleads guilty, he will get a fine; but if he says to the judge he demands that he has a right to speed and that imposing restrictions on how fast he can drive is "Speedsterphobic" and we should get used to the fact that he and his fellow speedsters are here - the judge will, hopefully, throw the book at him.

Same thing here.

Included in this is the institutionalization of this Aveirah, where they make their own synagogues and communities. If these groups were like Alcoholics Anonymous where people who are fighting the same Taavah get together to try to strengthen each other, that would be fine. But that's not what these "communities" are. They are designed to bestow acceptability on this type of behavior and to make it seem "normal."

The issue is not that they have no right to daven - sure they do. But so does a Mechalel Shabbos. Yet there is a big difference between an Orthodox Shul where the members don't keep Shabbos versus an Orthodox Shul called חברה מחללי שבת, or a group of Frum kleptomaniacs making a Shul called ק"ק אנשי גניבה. One is recognizing a Yetzer Horah and the other is institutionalizing it.

And the institutionalizing of Aveiros is something we cannot under any circumstances accept. Because although we can be understanding when people violate the Torah - we know nobody is perfect - we have zero tolerance for people who want to change the Torah. And those who want us to accept this abomination are trying to do just that.

[ohevyisroel]

everything said is prob all u need but just wanted to add one little bit to it - homosexuals really creep me out b/c its not just that they r doin an aveirah its tht they are totally corrupting society - im talkin abt nowadays how they're makin it into a whole fad - its bad enuf the world is as immoral as it is but at least its according to normal human drives. this is beyond - i mean most of the ppl tht say they r gay r totally not its jsut all of a sudden cool so they say they r.
im actually a very accepting person & i wasnt sure how i shud look at them (i've learned that this middah of accepting - like every middah - has its negative sides - a person can b too accepting or accepting of things tht we are not supposed to be accepting of so now i try to make boundaries of where i stop just accepting. the torah is so amazing and so brilliantly made & 10% knos the human phsyche tht it provides just the right type of boundaries for every middah mine included - i set those boundaries of mine according to the torah) - like how the torah looks at them (as opposed to the goyim) so i asked a teacher of mine & she helped to me come to a conclusion. so i look at them like this: i feel really bad for them that they are emotionally unstable - but i compare them to murderers - in the same way tht i feel bad for the murderers who are murderes b/c they are not emotionally stable or thts how they were born or wtvr - but i still see & feel the need to get rid of them b/c they are a danger to society so too i feel bad for ppl who decide to become or convince themselves tht they are gay - even if they were 'born tht way' but i feel the need to get rid of them b/c they are a danger to society and they are turning the whole world upside down
not sure this is so clear srry hope it helps somewht

[taon]

You mean people who embrace homosexuality, not all homosexuals. And it's not just society that this and other immoralities affect, it's the whole world. Before the mabul even animals began copying human degeneracies. It could be the same is happening today.

[goddessofdance]

First of all, let me just say that I'm a frum girl from bais yaakov and the reason I hate judaism and the people that follow it is because of all this disgusting and absolutely baseless hatred that jews have for one another.
According to the torah, there is absolutely nothing wrong with being homosexual!!!!!!!! People are born with it! There is a problem with acting upon it, such as: two men or two women cannot get married or have relations, but if you're are gay, that says nothing about how frum you are.
For all those people who are haters:
Do you honestly think that it's a choice for people to be homosexual? Which jewish person who is frum will one day decide "oh, I think I'll be homosexual so people will hate on me and my community won't accept me and I'll have a hard life...that sounds like fun." You gotta be crazy!!!! Because of people like you, problems happen. Boys who are gay and girls who are lesbian are scared witless when they realize that they like their gender instead of the opposite. They would never tell anyone cuz people will say they're crazy and that they should go into some program that will scare them straight....
A boy who is gay is forbidden according to the torah to marry a straight girl and vice versa since it is extremely unfair for the other one since she/he will never be truly loved by their spouse...(unless the partner was told and they agree)...but in today's society boys and girls are pressured into marrying by a certain age and instead of saying "i'm gay", they'll go out, like a girl, and marry her....they won't love her, but what can they do....the way our communities are judging and labeling, we're causing wrongdoings...so for all of you who think you're so "holy", get a life!
My rabbi deals with a lot of issues of this kind and this is one thing that happened recently:
A cousin (man) of my rabbi came to my rabbi and said, "I have a friend from yeshiva who is married with kids, and he came to me a couple of days ago and told me that he has always really loved me not his wife." My rabbi spoke to that man and he was forced to tell his wife that he was gay since according to the torah, it's unfair for her.
And i don't want to imagine all the problems they had as a result....
Yes, I'm sure that lots of the non-jewish people who claim to be gay do it by choice since they want to "have fun" as teens and "experiment", but there are plenty that aren't by choice.
I know that lots of people say that christianity is hypocritical since they preach love and peace but during ww2 they helped nazis get away...well, i feel like judaism is doing the same thing...we all preach to be good and accepting and dan lekaf zchus/ judge others favorably (or just don't judge anyone at all since who are we to decide what is right and wrong), but then we preach hatred of things we're afraid of, things that are new....
And no, I am not gay, I'm straight- that shouldn't matter but unfortunately, i'm sure that being gay or straight would change how people read this. If i said i was gay, people would disregard this as someone who just wants to stir up trouble or i don't know what you'd think cuz i just can't understand your "holy" minds....but since i'm straight, hopefully you'll pay some attention and actually read what is written.

[goddessofdance]

everything said is prob all u need but just wanted to add one little bit to it - homosexuals really creep me out b/c its not just that they r doin an aveirah its tht they are totally corrupting society - im talkin abt nowadays how they're makin it into a whole fad - its bad enuf the world is as immoral as it is but at least its according to normal human drives. this is beyond - i mean most of the ppl tht say they r gay r totally not its jsut all of a sudden cool so they say they r.
im actually a very accepting person & i wasnt sure how i shud look at them (i've learned that this middah of accepting - like every middah - has its negative sides - a person can b too accepting or accepting of things tht we are not supposed to be accepting of so now i try to make boundaries of where i stop just accepting. the torah is so amazing and so brilliantly made & 10% knos the human phsyche tht it provides just the right type of boundaries for every middah mine included - i set those boundaries of mine according to the torah) - like how the torah looks at them (as opposed to the goyim) so i asked a teacher of mine & she helped to me come to a conclusion. so i look at them like this: i feel really bad for them that they are emotionally unstable - but i compare them to murderers - in the same way tht i feel bad for the murderers who are murderes b/c they are not emotionally stable or thts how they were born or wtvr - but i still see & feel the need to get rid of them b/c they are a danger to society so too i feel bad for ppl who decide to become or convince themselves tht they are gay - even if they were 'born tht way' but i feel the need to get rid of them b/c they are a danger to society and they are turning the whole world upside down
not sure this is so clear srry hope it helps somewht

Wow, and your username is ohevyisroel!!!!! What I just read is the exact opposite!!!! Compare homosexuals to murderers?!?!? are you insane???!!!???!!! I don't know who this teacher is, but he/she has no right to go about saying that.....
first of all, there is nothing wrong with homosexuality as in someone is gay- there is something wrong in acting upon it, but if someone is gay, that does not make them bad....and i'm sure there are plenty non-jews who do make a conscious choice to be gay cuz they wanna have fun and experiment, but no frum person would wake up one morning and decide "hey, i wanna be gay so people will hate on me and my community won't accept me" ( read my other post). Homosexuals are not emotionally unstable...it's in the chromosomes...so i do not see a connection to a murderer....
A murderer is someone who has committed a heinous crime causing other people pain....a homosexual is someone who has certain feelings and causes no harm to anyone...and a murderer is someone who has done something- you can't be a murderer if you didn't murder someone, yet you can be gay whether you have relations with someone of the same gender or not.......so basically, you're saying that everyone in the world is a murderer since it's in the feeling, not the action? i'm confused?.....

[shifpifer1]

wow, you seem to be very passionate about what you believe in.
1) the Torah says that a man should not have relations with a man. Now, wouldn't you call being "homosexual" a tayva? Like I really really want to eat treif, in fact it became an obsession, I have pictures all over my wall... now wouldn't you say that the Schar that I get

[shifpifer1]

sorry, but my last post was cut off...
what I am meaning to say is that there is a difference b/t having a tayva and actually acting upon it.
I don't remember what I wrote, so excuse me if I repeat myself.
Listen.. you use the word holy like its a bad thing. Where did you get that vibe that holy is wrong/bad?
In fact, it is just the opposite. Hashem commanded us to be like him, it says so all over Tanach that we should be a "goy Kadosh" a holy nation, and thats what makes us so special! Its even a mitzvah to be "Kadoshim Tihhyu.."
You might not get it now, but Im Yirtza Hashem, you will understand..
Also that is very odd of you to compare Orthodox Jews to Nazis, I mean all human beings make mistakes. Religious doesn't equal perfection, but it is a very big responsiblity. And that is what's beautiful, that Hashem wants us to grow a little every day.
I'm not sure if you are refering to gay being new, because honey, it is NOT new, you heard Taon, been around since the flood. And plenty of other Aveyros. Also, your not gay! So don't worry so much about it!

[taon]

I think people have been referring to those who embrace it as good. but you are right, the distinction is extremely important and must be made clear.

[Observer]

 I had read several of Rav Shapiro shlit"a's posts on this topic back on the old frumteens.com site. I have yet to see anyone deal with the topic in an as reasonable and logical as well as sensitive and compassionate--without any compromise whatsoever of Torah principles-- as Rabbi Shapiro did in those posts. 

 

 

I see, however, that a rather critical point from the old posts is absent here, so I would like to bring it in. 

 

As in his post above, Rabbi Shapiro had made the critical distinction between desires (ta`avohs)/orientation, on the one hand, and actions/behavior/acts, on the other, explaining that a person can only be held accountable for that which is voluntary, i.e., that which he has control over. 

 

Someone had then asked what is essentially the same question that bothers many: Why would G-d create someone with such desires that cannot be fulfilled without violating the Torah? Someone whose only choice, other than transgressing grave prohibitions, is to resign themselves to a life of complete celibacy, effectively depriving them of something as central to a happy, fulfilled life as a life partner with whom to share physical intimacy and raise a family? Someone who, even if not sinning, will inevitably have to deal with considerable stigma, isoloation and even ostracization, at least in any frum community. Would a kind, compassionate, loving G-d condemn someone to such a life? 

 

Rav Shapiro answered as follows:

 

Being gay is an excruciating Nisayon [test;tribulation;ordeal]. Why Hashem gave it to people is no different than asking why Hashem gave people the Nisayon of being in a concentration camp, or starving in Siberia, or being born with AIDS or some other terrible sickness. I went to Yeshiva with a guy who had Elephant Man's Disease (neurofibromatosis). He was horribly disfigured, to the point where it was almost impossible to look at him without recoiling in horror.

 

Believe it or not, he got married and had kids. He died very young, leaving a wife and orphans l"a. Who can imagine the pain that this guy went through all his life?

 

So your question is a good one, but we ought to no more wonder about this particular Nisayon than any other in the world.

One thing is for sure, though. This word is only temporary - we live only 120 years. When that's over, we're going to be around for millions and millions of years, for eternity, and then whatever pain we went through in this world we will be compensated for in the next world such that we will not be unhappy that for such a little time during our live - the time we were in this physical world - G-d gave us the pain.

 

It's like when a company takes money off your paycheck and invests it in their stock. Your wife may complain that you didn't bring home as much money as you could, but when the stock goes through the roof, the only complaint she's gonna have is that they didn't take more off than they did.

 

So too in the next world, those of us who suffered here are going to see how much our suffering is worth, and, even though now we don't know why some people have to have some of their happiness in this world taken off their paychecks, in the next world, believe me, the only complaint we will have is why Hashem didn't give us more of a Kaporah while we were still here.

 

May Hashem spare all of us from pain and Nisyonos and may we all know only happiness. 

 

 

 

(Full-thread at:

http://classic.frumt...hp?topic_id=174 )

[invisible]

Do you honestly think that it's a choice for people to be homosexual? Which jewish person who is frum will one day decide "oh, I think I'll be homosexual so people will hate on me and my community won't accept me and I'll have a hard life...that sounds like fun." You gotta be crazy!!!! Because of people like you, problems happen. Boys who are gay and girls who are lesbian are scared witless when they realize that they like their gender instead of the opposite. They would never tell anyone cuz people will say they're crazy and that they should go into some program that will scare them straight....

THANK YOU. When i realized (around 2-3 years ago) that im attracted to other girls, scared witless was a great way to describe me. i dont think a month goes by without me worrying about my future in the Jewish community. Thank you for putting this in perspective.