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Gedolim and Zionism


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#1 taon

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 05:22 PM

I was reading Rabbi Meisels biography of the Satmar Rav, and he seemed to say the Satmar Rav was one of the few against zionism post war. Obviously this isn't correct, so what is he saying? Is it just that the Satmar Rav considered working with the state like supporting it? And is there one good place i could show as proof that the Gedolim didin't support Zionism? We had a whole list on the old site, i remmeber.

#2 Rabbi Shapiro

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 08:20 PM

It's not an issue of supporting Zionism. It's an issue of how to fight it. Those other Gedolim, such as Rav Ahron Kotler for example, opposed Zionism just as much as they did before the war. They just held that after '48, the battle to prevent Israel from coming into existence is lost, the bad guys won, and we now need to fight Zionism on a different front. The way to do that is to try to obtain Hatzolah Purtah. if we cannot prevent Israel from coming into existence, let's try to make sure it does minimal damage to Judaism. Frum Jews need to join the government and use whatever leverage the frum community has at its disposal to prevent bad decrees and to ensure the rights and the flourishing of the frum community. They held that joining the State was the best way to oppose Zionism and its bad effects. What changed was, before the State we had to oppose having anything to do with the Zionists. After the State, their goals are already accomplished, so now the best way to fight them is to join their State and make sure they don't do more damage than necessary.

The Satmar Rebbe held that such an approach is not Hatzolah Purtah but rather makes you an accessory to the crime after the fact. He held that we still need to have nothing to do with the Zionists including joining their state.

Opposition to Zionism was not the issue. Opposition to joining the Zionists was.

As far as where to get information, try here.http://classic.frumteens.com.

If that does not work, try here and here.

#3 FS613

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 05:50 PM

Were Gidolim like Rav Elyashiv ZT"L and Rav Shach ZT"L,

those who headed a party within the Israeli government, to fighting the damage from within?

Thank you.

#4 Rabbi Shapiro

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 07:06 AM

Yes.

#5 yid

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Posted 25 August 2012 - 11:02 PM

If someone relates more to the opinion of the Satmar Rebbe but is not Satmar himself should he follow the Satmar Rebbe's view? Or should he follow the view of other gedolim who he would generally go by?

#6 Rabbi Shapiro

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 02:37 PM

If someone relates more to the opinion of the Satmar Rebbe but is not Satmar himself should he follow the Satmar Rebbe's view? Or should he follow the view of other gedolim who he would generally go by?

Well you're leaving out the main part of the question: How did this person decide to begin with which Gedolim "to generally go by"?

#7 yid

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 03:03 PM

Well you're leaving out the main part of the question: How did this person decide to begin with which Gedolim "to generally go by"?


He follows his rabbaim. Maybe I wasn't so clear. I'll try and ask my question in a different way. letssay I follow what my rav/community does. What should I/one do if in a particular case another view makes more sense? aren't you not supposed to go "rabbi shopping"?

#8 Rabbi Shapiro

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 03:41 PM

He follows his rabbaim. Maybe I wasn't so clear. I'll try and ask my question in a different way. letssay I follow what my rav/community does. What should I/one do if in a particular case another view makes more sense? aren't you not supposed to go "rabbi shopping"?

"Rabbi shopping" means asking around until you get an answer you want (and even then, it' not always prohibited - but that's not for now). But it does not say anywhere that you have to follow one Rav regarding everything. Especially in a case where the Rav you want to follow in a particular area is the greater one, or you believe he has proven his case.

#9 yid

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 05:18 PM

"Rabbi shopping" means asking around until you get an answer you want (and even then, it' not always prohibited - but that's not for now). But it does not say anywhere that you have to follow one Rav regarding everything. Especially in a case where the Rav you want to follow in a particular area is the greater one, or you believe he has proven his case.


But who am I to say that Rav Shach's view isn't "as good" as the Satmar Rebbe or vice versa. My Torah knowledge insight and objectivity doesn't even compare to theirs. I just think I would be choosing one over the other without enough expertise and that given that lacking my opinion isn't worth much.

#10 Rabbi Shapiro

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 05:33 PM

But who am I to say that Rav Shach's view isn't "as good" as the Satmar Rebbe or vice versa. My Torah knowledge insight and objectivity doesn't even compare to theirs. I just think I would be choosing one over the other without enough expertise and that given that lacking my opinion isn't worth much.

Then why would you want to follow one over the other?

But I have a more important question - do you have an idea of what the views of either of these Geodlim are? Specifically, do you know regarding what they disagree altogether that choosing is even an option?

#11 yid

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 05:01 PM

Then why would you want to follow one over the other?

But I have a more important question - do you have an idea of what the views of either of these Geodlim are? Specifically, do you know regarding what they disagree altogether that choosing is even an option?


You explained the positions in an earlier post but in my own words I see the 2 views as either 1. Didn't want the state to have been established but now that its here do what one can to influence the state from within as a form of damage control. vs 2. Joining the government and Zionists makes you a partner in crime.

I'm not sure if i understand your question but i would like to follow one over the other b.c they are mutually exclusive. On the one hand I can relate more to the position about not "joining the enemy" but on the other hand that is the view of my most in my community and if its a valid perspective maybe I' just missing something and should go like the majority

#12 Rabbi Shapiro

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 09:16 AM

The only differences between becoming a "partner in crime" versus "fighting from within" is joining the government and voting in the Israeli national elections. My question therefore was meant to ask: If neither of those activities are relevant to you then what exactly is it that you need to decide to do?

Also, these two issues (which are really one and the same) - joining the government and voting - are not a "perspective" thing. It is a Halachic dispute. With more than two sides. Therefore, when you say you can "relate" to one position more than the other, it is irrelevant, because the ability to "relate" to a particular side is not a criterion that may be used to pasken like that side.

All that said, you do not have to follow your community or the quantitative majority in this matter. There are no such requirements.