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ikvata dimashicha vs. atchalta digeula


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#1 danceInTheRain

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 05:25 AM

what is the defenition of atchalta digeula? why are some people so against saying that we are seeing the beggining of the geula now(rather they will say that we are in ikvata dimashicha)? to me it sounds like a play on words - like when its getting dark outside you can either say it is the end of the day or the beggining of night. so whats the real answer?
thank u

#2 Rabbi Shapiro

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 02:07 PM

Ikvesa Demeshicha does not mean the beginning of the Geulah. The beginning of the Geulah is a good thing, something to celebrate. It is the beginning of Klall Yisroel on their way up, out of their centuries of Ruchnius and Gashmius problems.

Ikevesa Demeshicha is not that. On the contrary - it is Klall Yisroel on its way down. It is nothing to celebrate. It is a time when we are witness to the deepest dysfunction in Klall Yisroel. Jews will be following bad people; wise men will be disdained; various types of pain will be meted down upon our nation. It is a dark time. Nothing to celebrate. It can last for centuries theoretically. The Ramchal said we are in Ikvesa Demeshicha almost 300 years ago. Nobody, for the record, said that the State of Israel triggered Ikvesa Demeshicha.

The idea that we are experiencing Aschata D'Geuah, on the other hand, is something the Zionists made up (i.e. R. A.Y. Kook, in Igros R'Iyah 3:p.184), because they look at the founding of the State of Israel and Zionism in general in a Messianic way. (During the RCA convention in '48, R. Haskel Lookstein led a symposium called "The Jewish State and Galus," where he stated, "We recognize that this State of Israel does not prove that Mashiach has come." ("Does not "prove"?!) But even this concession came with a qualifier: "One eighth of Eretz Yisroel without Jerusalem is not Mashiach," he explained.). Aschalta D'Geulah means Klall Yisroel is on its way up. Our Tzoros are on their way out. It is reason to celebrate. It means the Geulah has begun.

This is something that is assur to say. The Geulah has not begun, and saying so is a distortion.

When someone mentioned to Rav Elchonon Wasserman ZTL, that the Zionists are saying the State of Israel is going to be hasten the Geulah (Rav Elchonon was niftar in '39), he said, "Maybe. But for a different reason. Chazal say that the 400 years the Jews were destined to be in Golus in Egypt was reduced to 210 because of the terrible suffering that they endured, which reduced the amount of years they had to be in Golus.

"If so," said Rav Elchonon, "It is very possible that the State of Israel will indeed hasten the Geulah, since it is likely to be the biggest misfortune the Jews have experienced during all of Golus. Its founding may well reduce the amount of years we have to spend in Golus."

#3 danceInTheRain

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 01:28 PM

do chazal define ikvita demashicha and atchalta digeula anywhere? a source would be very helpfull.
thanks.

#4 Rabbi Shapiro

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 08:12 PM

do chazal define ikvita demashicha and atchalta digeula anywhere? a source would be very helpfull.
thanks.

Aschalta DeGeulah is described in Megillah (17b).

The Gemora in Sanhedrin says that right in the last year before Moshiach comes there will be wars. These wars will be the last phase of seven years of upheavals that will happen before Moshiach comes. The Gemora says this is why the Bracha of Geulah is seventh in Shemonah Esrei. The Gemora then asks, if Moshiach is going to come after the seven years are up, the Bracha of Geulah should have been the 8th Bracha, not the 7th. The Gemora answers that the wars of the seventh year are also part of the Geulah - Aschata D'Geulah - and so Geulah is the 7th Bracha.

That's it.

Ikvesa D'Meshicha is described in a Mishna in Sotah (49b):

"In Ikvos Meshicha, (Rashi: The end of Golus, before Moshiach comes), Chutzpah will increase; honor will be distorted; there will be a great supply of wine but it will be expensive; the government will be Apikorsim, and nobody will give them rebuke; the places where scholars meet will be turned into dens of iniquity (because there will be no Torah scholars left - Rashi) ; Galil will be destroyed; Gablan will be empty; people who live in the outskirts will go around begging and nobody will have pity on them; the wisdom of scholars will be spoiled; those who fear sin will be despised; the truth will not be found; young people will humiliate older people; the elderly will stand up in the presence of the youth; sons will consider their fathers disgusting; daughters will rebel against their mothers, also a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; a man's enemies will be members of his own household; the face of the generation will be like the face of a dog; sons will have no shame in front of their fathers. Who will be able to rely on? Only on Hashem."

From Rav Shach on this topic:

"And so, if from Hashem it was decided that through some political means they did what they did and they announced some agreement to create a Jewish State, we must remind ourselves of the fundamental principle not to chas v'sholom think even for one second that a new era has begun, and to err and to make others err by thinking that this is something like Aschalta D'Geulah. A deviant thought such as this (מחשבה פסולה כזאת) and similar ideas endanger our very existence and are Kefirah against the foundation of foundations of our very being. And we need to understand that this whole thing is just a test (Nisayon) from Hashem to test Klall Yisroel see if we will veer from our Derech that has been handed to us from generation to generation." (Michtavim UMaamarim 1:10)