i read many times your "first cause argument" and it gives an amazing understanding on the true nature of hashem, is there such a thing regarding the true nature of the torah, how we know that it is true, i understand we have a mesorah, but is there mre than that.
Proof From Mesorah I
Started by
shaya
, May 29 2011 09:02 PM
mesorah proofs kuzari principle kuzari argument proof har sinai
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#2
Rabbi Shapiro
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Posted 01 June 2011 - 04:13 PM
There is much evidence to the Divine origin of the Torah which are discussed in various seforim. However, the main proof we have to the truth of the Torah is the unbroken generation-to-generation tradition that we have going back to Har Sinai. Many Rishonim mention this, and it is most commonly known from, and I believe first mentioned by, the Kuzari. I have had this conversation before, online, and I will copy it below.
Then, in my next post, I will show that, when viewed within the context of history, the Kuzari argument becomes much, much stronger.
First, the old conversation:
Torah is different than all the other so-called “religions” in that every other religion began with some guy claiming to have heard G-d tell him that He (G-d) wants to start a religion. Unverifiable, and hardly very believable. So all religions are based on “belief”, blind belief in a prophet who claims that G-d confided in him about starting the religion[1].
Of course, these religions could not claim that G-d came to the masses and said “Hello, I want to start Christianity”, because the masses don’t know anything about it. If Yoshkah would have told everyone “The Creator of the world came to all of us 400 years ago and told all of our ancestors to follow Yoshkah”, they of course would have said, “Hey Yoshkah, how come you’re the only one that knows about this?” You can’t get away with telling a story to millions of people about how their grandparents, millions of them, all together had G-d talk to them.
But the Torah does just that. Hashem came to the entire nation saying, “I am Hashem. This is what I want from you…” If a human being would have written the Torah and tried to sell this idea to the descendants of the millions at Har Sinai, it could not have worked.
But only the Torah doesthat. As opposed to Judaism, here’s how other religions started:
CHRISTIANITY – Mary comes home to her husband, Joseph, pregnant. It’s not his, and he’s upset. Joseph says an angel came to him secretly and explained her excuse: “G-d did it.” So now a religion starts. Oh, and Yoshka’s resurrection? Nobody claims to have seen it. Some claim that they saw Yoshkah alive after he was supposed to have been dead, but no verification has ever been provided.
ISLAM – The religion started when Muhammad claimed to have heard a “message from G-d” that he was chosen to be the holy “chat’m” (a special kind of prophet). He heard other messages, too, and he compiled them into what later became the Quran (Koran). Nobody except Muhammad heard these messages. You either believe him or youdon’t.
The Quran reports that Mohammed’s mother also heard a voice claiming that her son will be a king and prophet, but we have no idea if this woman ever told this to anyone or the story was made up afterwards, never mind if she herself was really telling the truth. Another “secret” revelation.
BUDDISM – Prince Siddhartha Gautama claims to have been supernaturally “enlightened” whilst in the midst of a meditative trance. When he “woke up” he enlightened the rest of the world with his supernaturally obtained truths. (I am not making this up.)
MORMONS – A man named Joseph Smith claims to have been periodically visited by angels, Yoshkah, Hashem Himself – you name it – explaining to him that all religions are fake, and giving him the secret directions to some golden “luchos” with important messages. Smith further claims to have eventually located these tablets, and recorded their message into what is now called The Book of Mormon. A friend of Smith, by the name of Oliver Cowdery, also claims to have been visited by certain disciples of Yoshkah who bestowed upon both Cowdery and Smith some type of priesthood. (I am not making this up either – check it out).
ANOTHER RELIGION WHO CLAIMS A PUBLIC REVELATION[2]. There is in fact another religion that does indeed claim a public revelation. Some Indian groups have an oral tradition that the Hindu god Krishna addressed millions of warriors who participated in a certain battle. But – get this! – ALL THOSE WHO HEARD KRISHNA DIED IN THE BATTLE. Nobody survived to tell of the revelation. So how do we know it? Take a guess. Some individual, later in history was visited by Krishna privately who told him the story that nobody else knew.
JUDAISM - G-d Himself appeared to millions of Jews and told them "I am Hashem. This is what I want you to do . . . "
No comparison.
Of all the different dissident sects on record, including Christians, not a single one questioned the revelation. This is true despite the fact that denying the revelation or describing it differently would have been very much in their interest, and conceding to it was very much against their own interest.
So every single group on record willingly conceded to a revelation where G-d said to follow the Torah ,which put them at a tremendous disadvantage and forced them to weave the most far out tales in order to justify their dissent.
Nobody would do this unless they had to. And the fact that everybody on record did it shows clearly that they had no choice. If it wasn’t an historically accepted fact, they would not, all of them, admit it was so.
Every single version of the Torah throughout the world ever found has the exact same narratives in it. Greek mythology (totally incomparable to the Torah) has numerous versions, despite its relative geographic narrowness and limited time frame. The Torah onthe other hand, which has been in the hands of religions, tribes, and even atheists all over the world for thousands of years - factions which were warring with each other even - all have the exact same stories without any discrepancies.
You’re proving my point, not contesting it. Despite all the disagreements, no group ever denied the giving of the Torah. That is one thing that was indisputable.
Because nobody can confirm or deny their lies. Either G-d spoke to Mohammed or He did not. Who's to say? Except Mohammed. If you want to believe him, fine. Nobody can contradict him.
The Torah is the only one of these stories that could not have been fabricated.
Besides, the fact is that throughout history people have been convinced of the stupidest things, such as totem pole gods, scientology, and assorted nonsensical theologies.
It is no problem to convince people to believe a lie that cannot be contradicted by the listeners.
The impossibility is convincing people to believe a lie that can be contradicted by the masses.
The point is that while all other religions COULD have been faked,Judaism COULD NOT have been faked.
And that only Judaism makes a claim that has to be true and all other religions - all - do not, even though it would be in their benefit to do so.
They - every single one of them without exception besides Judaism - chose an origin for their religion that cannot be proven.
Your question is an error.
Please follow:
Step 1: The fact that, shortly after the event allegedly transpired, the descendants of the supposed witnesses all believed that a public, national event happened to their grandparents. That's a fact.
Step 2: Here's another fact: Nobody in the history of the world, religious leaders, hoaxers, charlatans, revisionists of history etc. ever concocted a false event that included millions of witnesses. Even though we would expect them to do this, because it benefits their cause. Particularly those who believe in the Torah, such as Christians and Muslims: If the Torah's version of the revelation was fabricated, they could have/should have fabricated an at least equal version for the giving of the New Testament or the Quran - instead of the less credible versions that they do give.
Step 3: Fact #2 is upheld by logic: You cannot concoct an event that happened to millions of ancestors of the people who you are trying to convince of the event, because if it were true, they would have heard aboutit. Therefore, since it cannot work, it never happened.
Step 4: But it worked, this supposed concoction, regarding the Revelation at Mt. Sinai. Not only did it work, but there is no record at all of any differing version of that part of history amongst the nation, and more, all those who in fact rebelled against the Torah - from Christians to Saducees to Essenes to Karaites et al - still conceded that this event did indeed happen. Nobody questioned it. Not even the Christians, who wanted to undo the whole Torah. Nobody questioned it. Why?
So we have not submitted into evidence any portion of the Torah itself. Merely the social evidence of a historical anomaly the likes of which has never occurred before or after (the belief of an event with millions of witnesses that happened to ancestors), even though it logically should have (in other religions, particularly those who believe the Revelation, such as Christianity and Islam), to the extent that even those who wanted to deny the Torah's teachings never denied this belief.
This anomaly has no parallel in history, and has only one logical explanation: The story is true.
As a syllogism:
1) Revelation is either true or a hoax.
2) But such a hoax could never be as successful as the story of the Revelation was.
3) Therefore it cannot be a hoax.
<br clear="all">[1] See Introduction to SMG: “Therefore Hashem did this so that when the Jews are in exile and an idol-worshipper says to them ‘Abandon the Torah and worship idols,’ and will provide a miracle [to prove his religion], the Jews can answer, ‘Even if you give us a multitude of signs and miracles as much as Moshe Rabbeinu did, we will not believe you that we should abandon our Torah, unless we hear with our own ears, that Hashem speaks to you the way He spoke to Moshe, for even through Moshe, Hashem wanted us to believe the Torah only because of what we heard with our own ears, and since He gave us the Torah and said ‘You see I am speaking to you from Shamayim’, His message was not to believe any person that says I have changed this Torah, unless you see that I [Myself] speak with you from Shamayim and tell you to change it.”
[2] This information, which I have not verified and cannot independently confirm or deny, comes from Rabbi Leib Kellemen, in “Permission to Receive” (Feldheim, ’96).
Then, in my next post, I will show that, when viewed within the context of history, the Kuzari argument becomes much, much stronger.
First, the old conversation:
Torah is different than all the other so-called “religions” in that every other religion began with some guy claiming to have heard G-d tell him that He (G-d) wants to start a religion. Unverifiable, and hardly very believable. So all religions are based on “belief”, blind belief in a prophet who claims that G-d confided in him about starting the religion[1].
Of course, these religions could not claim that G-d came to the masses and said “Hello, I want to start Christianity”, because the masses don’t know anything about it. If Yoshkah would have told everyone “The Creator of the world came to all of us 400 years ago and told all of our ancestors to follow Yoshkah”, they of course would have said, “Hey Yoshkah, how come you’re the only one that knows about this?” You can’t get away with telling a story to millions of people about how their grandparents, millions of them, all together had G-d talk to them.
But the Torah does just that. Hashem came to the entire nation saying, “I am Hashem. This is what I want from you…” If a human being would have written the Torah and tried to sell this idea to the descendants of the millions at Har Sinai, it could not have worked.
But only the Torah doesthat. As opposed to Judaism, here’s how other religions started:
CHRISTIANITY – Mary comes home to her husband, Joseph, pregnant. It’s not his, and he’s upset. Joseph says an angel came to him secretly and explained her excuse: “G-d did it.” So now a religion starts. Oh, and Yoshka’s resurrection? Nobody claims to have seen it. Some claim that they saw Yoshkah alive after he was supposed to have been dead, but no verification has ever been provided.
ISLAM – The religion started when Muhammad claimed to have heard a “message from G-d” that he was chosen to be the holy “chat’m” (a special kind of prophet). He heard other messages, too, and he compiled them into what later became the Quran (Koran). Nobody except Muhammad heard these messages. You either believe him or youdon’t.
The Quran reports that Mohammed’s mother also heard a voice claiming that her son will be a king and prophet, but we have no idea if this woman ever told this to anyone or the story was made up afterwards, never mind if she herself was really telling the truth. Another “secret” revelation.
BUDDISM – Prince Siddhartha Gautama claims to have been supernaturally “enlightened” whilst in the midst of a meditative trance. When he “woke up” he enlightened the rest of the world with his supernaturally obtained truths. (I am not making this up.)
MORMONS – A man named Joseph Smith claims to have been periodically visited by angels, Yoshkah, Hashem Himself – you name it – explaining to him that all religions are fake, and giving him the secret directions to some golden “luchos” with important messages. Smith further claims to have eventually located these tablets, and recorded their message into what is now called The Book of Mormon. A friend of Smith, by the name of Oliver Cowdery, also claims to have been visited by certain disciples of Yoshkah who bestowed upon both Cowdery and Smith some type of priesthood. (I am not making this up either – check it out).
ANOTHER RELIGION WHO CLAIMS A PUBLIC REVELATION[2]. There is in fact another religion that does indeed claim a public revelation. Some Indian groups have an oral tradition that the Hindu god Krishna addressed millions of warriors who participated in a certain battle. But – get this! – ALL THOSE WHO HEARD KRISHNA DIED IN THE BATTLE. Nobody survived to tell of the revelation. So how do we know it? Take a guess. Some individual, later in history was visited by Krishna privately who told him the story that nobody else knew.
JUDAISM - G-d Himself appeared to millions of Jews and told them "I am Hashem. This is what I want you to do . . . "
No comparison.
How do we know that there was no dissent, or that a rivalgroup did not come out and say that the records of the revelation were false? Also, when one studies Greek myths, which is what the Torah is comparable to, one begins with the premise that there is some historical truth, but the legends are embellished. Can we say the same with the Torah?
Of all the different dissident sects on record, including Christians, not a single one questioned the revelation. This is true despite the fact that denying the revelation or describing it differently would have been very much in their interest, and conceding to it was very much against their own interest.
So every single group on record willingly conceded to a revelation where G-d said to follow the Torah ,which put them at a tremendous disadvantage and forced them to weave the most far out tales in order to justify their dissent.
Nobody would do this unless they had to. And the fact that everybody on record did it shows clearly that they had no choice. If it wasn’t an historically accepted fact, they would not, all of them, admit it was so.
Every single version of the Torah throughout the world ever found has the exact same narratives in it. Greek mythology (totally incomparable to the Torah) has numerous versions, despite its relative geographic narrowness and limited time frame. The Torah onthe other hand, which has been in the hands of religions, tribes, and even atheists all over the world for thousands of years - factions which were warring with each other even - all have the exact same stories without any discrepancies.
Actually there ARE dissenting versions ofhistory, and they have been recorded.
The records of the Kaarites, the Dead Sea Scrolls, Josephus and Philo, and even statements in Chazal clearly say that the Chachamim were ONE of a number of groups in Bayis Sheini, each of which believed that it had the correct Mesorah. To take a deterministic viewpoint (which is very possibly the correct way to look at it) the Chachamin won the battle, so to speak, because they were correct, but it's just plain ignorance to claim that there were no other opinions.
You’re proving my point, not contesting it. Despite all the disagreements, no group ever denied the giving of the Torah. That is one thing that was indisputable.
What does one say to a person who asks, "How then ,with Torah being accepted by a nation, and G-d being WITNESSED by a nation, were the people of other religions able to convince their children, and they their own children, of the existence and truth of a lie whose very basis in logic is faulty?"
Because nobody can confirm or deny their lies. Either G-d spoke to Mohammed or He did not. Who's to say? Except Mohammed. If you want to believe him, fine. Nobody can contradict him.
The Torah is the only one of these stories that could not have been fabricated.
Besides, the fact is that throughout history people have been convinced of the stupidest things, such as totem pole gods, scientology, and assorted nonsensical theologies.
It is no problem to convince people to believe a lie that cannot be contradicted by the listeners.
The impossibility is convincing people to believe a lie that can be contradicted by the masses.
Judaism has its own version of G-d speaking to one person.The nevi'im.
Why should the kings in the Tanach believe the nevi'im?
So it might not be absurd that god ONLY spoke to Muhammador that god ONLY spoke to Jesus.
Judaism has its own version of this.
The point is that while all other religions COULD have been faked,Judaism COULD NOT have been faked.
And that only Judaism makes a claim that has to be true and all other religions - all - do not, even though it would be in their benefit to do so.
They - every single one of them without exception besides Judaism - chose an origin for their religion that cannot be proven.
I have heard this proof from the Revelation many times. But how can you prove the Torah from the Torah itself? What evidence, outside of the Torah, shows that there were millions of witnesses at Sinai?
Your question is an error.
Please follow:
Step 1: The fact that, shortly after the event allegedly transpired, the descendants of the supposed witnesses all believed that a public, national event happened to their grandparents. That's a fact.
Step 2: Here's another fact: Nobody in the history of the world, religious leaders, hoaxers, charlatans, revisionists of history etc. ever concocted a false event that included millions of witnesses. Even though we would expect them to do this, because it benefits their cause. Particularly those who believe in the Torah, such as Christians and Muslims: If the Torah's version of the revelation was fabricated, they could have/should have fabricated an at least equal version for the giving of the New Testament or the Quran - instead of the less credible versions that they do give.
Step 3: Fact #2 is upheld by logic: You cannot concoct an event that happened to millions of ancestors of the people who you are trying to convince of the event, because if it were true, they would have heard aboutit. Therefore, since it cannot work, it never happened.
Step 4: But it worked, this supposed concoction, regarding the Revelation at Mt. Sinai. Not only did it work, but there is no record at all of any differing version of that part of history amongst the nation, and more, all those who in fact rebelled against the Torah - from Christians to Saducees to Essenes to Karaites et al - still conceded that this event did indeed happen. Nobody questioned it. Not even the Christians, who wanted to undo the whole Torah. Nobody questioned it. Why?
So we have not submitted into evidence any portion of the Torah itself. Merely the social evidence of a historical anomaly the likes of which has never occurred before or after (the belief of an event with millions of witnesses that happened to ancestors), even though it logically should have (in other religions, particularly those who believe the Revelation, such as Christianity and Islam), to the extent that even those who wanted to deny the Torah's teachings never denied this belief.
This anomaly has no parallel in history, and has only one logical explanation: The story is true.
As a syllogism:
1) Revelation is either true or a hoax.
2) But such a hoax could never be as successful as the story of the Revelation was.
3) Therefore it cannot be a hoax.
<br clear="all">[1] See Introduction to SMG: “Therefore Hashem did this so that when the Jews are in exile and an idol-worshipper says to them ‘Abandon the Torah and worship idols,’ and will provide a miracle [to prove his religion], the Jews can answer, ‘Even if you give us a multitude of signs and miracles as much as Moshe Rabbeinu did, we will not believe you that we should abandon our Torah, unless we hear with our own ears, that Hashem speaks to you the way He spoke to Moshe, for even through Moshe, Hashem wanted us to believe the Torah only because of what we heard with our own ears, and since He gave us the Torah and said ‘You see I am speaking to you from Shamayim’, His message was not to believe any person that says I have changed this Torah, unless you see that I [Myself] speak with you from Shamayim and tell you to change it.”
[2] This information, which I have not verified and cannot independently confirm or deny, comes from Rabbi Leib Kellemen, in “Permission to Receive” (Feldheim, ’96).
#3
shaya
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Posted 03 June 2011 - 09:17 AM
1) you didnt really answer the question about the naviim.
2) the fact that the rest of the torah was givin by moses and the jews did not hear gods voice does that make for an argument that the rest of the torah is also only givin to moses?
3) didnt the whole of dor hamidbar (which were the witnesses) all die ?
2) the fact that the rest of the torah was givin by moses and the jews did not hear gods voice does that make for an argument that the rest of the torah is also only givin to moses?
3) didnt the whole of dor hamidbar (which were the witnesses) all die ?
Start with God - the first step in learning is bowing down to God; only fools thumb their noses at such wisdom and learning.
#4
Rabbi Shapiro
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Posted 03 June 2011 - 03:17 PM
1) Yes, I did. The question was that Judaism seems not to be different than the other religions where one person says G-d spoke to him, since that's what the Neviim did as well. The answer was, Judaism began as a mass revelation which proved that Hashem gave it; the other religions all originated by the claim of individuals. So the other religions don't even have a credible basis for their very existence; Judaism does.1) you didnt really answer the question about the naviim.
2) the fact that the rest of the torah was givin by moses and the jews did not hear gods voice does that make for an argument that the rest of the torah is also only givin to moses?
3) didnt the whole of dor hamidbar (which were the witnesses) all die ?
Now you're asking that within Judaism, which we know is a G-d-given religion, how do we know that Moshe did not make up his prophecies that were not heard by the rest of the nation.
The answer to that is that Hashem told the Jews that Moshr was Hashem's real prophet (Shemos 19:9). That's why they followed Moshe.
2) Ditto.
3) Well, yes, they died (as we would expect they would by now, either in the Midbar or elsewhere) but they passed on what they saw to their children. That's Mesorah.
#6
Rabbi Shapiro
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Posted 06 January 2012 - 02:55 PM
The Trojan War stories are mythology. They're like Goldilocks and the Three Bears. Nobody claims that they actually happened.What about Homer's stories about how Greek "gods" appeared and dictated the Trojan War where thousands of soldiers and civilians participated?
#7
taon
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Posted 08 January 2012 - 11:03 PM
Supposedly some ancient Greek historians claimed parts of the stories were true, but even the ancient Greeks knew their historians were constantly making things up and say so in their writings.
Once in school we had to watch a documentary where archaeologists were trying to find some evidence of something at troy matching the stories. They made all sorts of huge stretches just to prove certain towns existed. But when it comes to the Torah, no amount of clear evidence is enough.
Once in school we had to watch a documentary where archaeologists were trying to find some evidence of something at troy matching the stories. They made all sorts of huge stretches just to prove certain towns existed. But when it comes to the Torah, no amount of clear evidence is enough.
#10
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Posted 13 August 2013 - 05:25 PM
Question: How do we know that Moshe did not fool the Jews into believing that they just witnessed Hashem speaking to them? How do we know they weren't crazed slaves that Moshe didn't just brainwash them to believe they witnessed what really never happened? Any logical explanation/proof to this?
#11
taon
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Posted 26 August 2013 - 06:07 PM
Fake it how? even today it would be near impossible. And so what if we were slaves? Context and logic show that we werent stupid, have always been stubborn and skeptical, andwe certainly had time to think it over. And even if Moshe would have a reason to fake the Laws of the Torah, and been able to fake it's delivery, as Rabbi Keleman asked, why hasn't such a thing happend before or since?
#12
Chaim613
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Posted 23 December 2013 - 04:27 PM
Doesn't the whole baal teshuva movement poke some holes in the validity of the proof from mesorah? Many of the people who have become frum did not do so from hearing or knowing that the their great-great grandparents received the Torah..... many of them are many generations removed from frum Jews as ancestors.....
At the same time they accepted that "in the distant past your ancestors stood at Sinai" ..... the lie could not be checked....only from other people who had already "bought into the whole thing" not from parents....
My confusion lies in the sense that couldnt this just have existed in a larger scale when Judaism founded/ the Torah was written? (I dont believe this, just playing devil's advocate)...
thank you
#13
taon
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Posted 09 January 2014 - 06:02 PM
They believe it because they a. know their ancestors believed it and b. know their nation of millions believe it because their ancestors etc. its not coming from nowhere, the proof is right there in front of them, not in a distant people or something.
Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: mesorah, proofs, kuzari principle, kuzari argument, proof, har sinai
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