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#1 rocksdontfly

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 11:17 PM

When I go running outside, to I need to cover my legs?

#2 Rabbi Shapiro

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 01:43 AM

To the same extent as when you are not running. Running would not change the requirements.

#3 Menorah

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 12:01 AM

Wouldn't the need to cover in that circumstance be to a greater extent than normally, since running could potentially expose areas not exposed during the course of normal walking?

#4 Rabbi Shapiro

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 08:03 AM

Yes, that is what I meant. When I said there is no difference I meant in the Halachos. The usual Halachos apply while running and you have to do whatever it takes under the circumstances.

#5 rocksdontfly

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 08:35 AM

right. that makes sense. I was curious bc someone told me Im allowed to wear short sleeves at the gym so I wasnt sure ab exercising in gen.
I have another tznious question. Im working at a day camp this summer, and I think some of the other counselors (and the mothers in the bungalow colony) r a little lax on tznious and dont wear socks. I can guess the answer but I just want to be certain- I still have to wear socks right? even though no one else is ... ?
there r 2 things that r standing out in my head. First is minhag hamakom, but I dont really know the specifics about how that works, and why it wld apply to an avaira.. ? The other thing is something we read in pirkai avos, in place where there is no man strive to be a man. so if no one is wearing socks..
so Im confused *-*

#6 Rabbi Shapiro

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 11:08 AM

You are correct. You still have to wear socks. Here's the story:

The are two ways something can become Ervah in Halachah:

1) If the Torah specifies it as Ervah. In this category go knees, ankles, singing, marries women's hair, and the like.

2) Even if the Torah does not specify a given behavior or mode of dress as Ervah, sometimes, if something is generally accepted mode of dress, then violating that becomes Ervah as well. Socks are in this category. Meaning, if women generally wear socks, then not wearing them becomes Ervah. And the definition of "generally accepted" means in a particular land.

L'Halacha, you should wear socks. Because in general (Minchas Yitzchok 6:10, and others) it is accepted by Bnos Yisroel to do so. Especially if you wear socks during the year, you would not be permitted not to wear them in camp just because many of the girls there don't. A camp definitely does not constitute a new "place" that has its own definitions of Ervah. Obviously I cannot create a new "place" with a new mode of dress by saying that in my house women don't wear socks and therefore any woman from now on does not Halachicly have to wear socks if she comes into my house.

Same applies to a camp. (What's going to happen when you go into town to a place where maybe the girls do wear socks? Are all your camp mates going to put on socks for that?) A camp, or a bungalow colony does not create a place that allows a new mode of dress.

But besides all of that, there is another very good reason you should not take off your socks in the summer. It is unwise from a Chinuch perspective to change your standards of Tznius in the summer only to have to return to them afterwards. It is not in your interest to get used to freely going sock-less with your friends only to have to change suddenly when you get off the bus. It's confusing to a teenager, and it just makes doing the right thing harder for you.

#7 achasshoalti

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 12:39 PM

>> In this category goes knees, ankles

isn't below the knee a machlokes as to whether this is a torah-specified erva??

#8 Rabbi Shapiro

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 02:31 PM

Yes, because there can be machlokes here just like there is in other areas of Halachah. But regardless of whether you hold the Shok is till the knee or the ankle, it s because it is a #1 category Ervah listed above , i,e. one identified in the Torah, as opposed to an Ervah due to commonly accepted mode of dress.

#9 rocksdontfly

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 10:47 PM

You are correct. You still have to wear socks. Here's the story:

The are two ways something can become Ervah in Halachah:

1) If the Torah specifies it as Ervah. In this category go knees, ankles, singing, marries women's hair, and the like.

2) Even if the Torah does not specify a given behavior or mode of dress as Ervah, sometimes, if something is generally accepted mode of dress, then violating that becomes Ervah as well. Socks are in this category. Meaning, if women generally wear socks, then not wearing them becomes Ervah. And the definition of "generally accepted" means in a particular land.

L'Halacha, you should wear socks. Because in general (Minchas Yitzchok 6:10, and others) it is accepted by Bnos Yisroel to do so. Especially if you wear socks during the year, you would not be permitted not to wear them in camp just because many of the girls there don't. A camp definitely does not constitute a new "place" that has its own definitions of Ervah. Obviously I cannot create a new "place" with a new mode of dress by saying that in my house women don't wear socks and therefore any woman from now on does not Halachicly have to wear socks if she comes into my house.

Same applies to a camp. (What's going to happen when you go into town to a place where maybe the girls do wear socks? Are all your camp mates going to put on socks for that?) A camp, or a bungalow colony does not create a place that allows a new mode of dress.

But besides all of that, there is another very good reason you should not take off your socks in the summer. It is unwise from a Chinuch perspective to change your standards of Tznius in the summer only to have to return to them afterwards. It is not in your interest to get used to freely going sock-less with your friends only to have to change suddenly when you get off the bus. It's confusing to a teenager, and it just makes doing the right thing harder for you.


I understand. It is really hard, especially since only 1 of my friends is also wearing sox. But were motivating each other and staying strong b''H :)

#10 Rabbi Shapiro

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 11:41 PM

!חזקי

Hashem is getting Nachas from you!