19 replies to this topic

[JewishAttorney]

It's known that in Jewish history a minhag of a community, if prevalent, may reshape the way the community treats a certain behavior. For example, sheitels, which were criticized by many and used by some as a heter, turned into a minhag of numerous Orthodox communities. It's probably safe to assume that 90% of all frum women wear sheitels.

That one example aside, how do minhagim generally affect our way of life that transcends the level of a minhag and turns into halacha purely based on its prevelance?

Here are my made up sci-fi hypos: Due to social ecomonic change, population growth and wars, a 100 years from today:
(1) Chasidim end up making up 95% of the frum world and 100% of Poskim. Is shaving beards likely to universally become assur or looked at as dangerous behavior of "Modern Orthodoxy"?

(2) Same example but German Jews and poskim instead of Chasidim - would everyone be expected to go around the chuppa 3 times instead of 7 and 100% adherence to say Rama and Rav Hirsh?

(3) Same hypo with Sephardim - would sheitels worn by Ashkenazi ultra minority become straight up violations of halacha?

I know my hypos are far-fetched, but perhaps similar examples on a lesser scale took place in Jewish History or if not, perhaps our Sages considered such issues. Thanks.

[Rabbi Shapiro]

The answer is no, it does not work like that.

You are confusing a people's behavior (such as in the case of shaitels), which is influenced by many factors, including their desires and perceptions of Mutar and Assur, versus the opinions of poskim (all of your examples), which are not affected by such factors.

[shaya]

good topic actually---

a 100 years ago the matirim on shaitlech were a minority and now it is not.

[Rabbi Shapiro]

good topic actually---

a 100 years ago the matirim on shaitlech were a minority and now it is not.

They're still a minority. What changed was not the opinion of the Poskim but the type of people we are dealing with that caused more Rabbonim to allow them to rely on the lenient opinions.

People insisted on wearing shaitlach, the Rabbonim tolerated it because יש להם על מי לסמוך because there were Sholom Bayis issues plus at least the women were covering their hair altogether, something that, not long ago was a very difficult thing to accomplish, even with Shaitlach. Because of this it became the communal norm in most places, but there was no "influence of the majority" on the Poskim.

[Menorah]

They're still a minority. What changed was not the opinion of the Poskim but the type of people we are dealing with that caused more Rabbonim to allow them to rely on the lenient opinions.

People insisted on wearing shaitlach, the Rabbonim tolerated it because יש להם על מי לסמוך because there were were Sholom Bayis issues plus at least the women were covering their hair altogether, something that, not long ago was a very difficult thing to accomplish, even with Shaitlach. Because of this it became the communal norm in most places, but there was no "influence of the majority" on the Poskim.

Now that, B"H, women in the frum community cover their hair, shouldn't the majority go back to the majority opinion?

Also, according to the majority of poskim who hold it is assur, they hold that only a tichel is good or even those head coverings that are a combination of a tichel with a small amount of fake hair in the front?

[Rabbi Shapiro]

Now that, B"H, women in the frum community cover their hair, shouldn't the majority go back to the majority opinion?

Just because they're willing to cover their hair doesn't mean they're willing to forgo their shaitlach. In fact, if they would have had the shaitlach they have today back then, it probably would have been much easier to convince the women to wear them.

We need to choose our battles. Let them be with their shaitlach.

[shifpifer1]

also there are women who arnt even thought makpid about covering their hair but since they can look good in their attractive shaitlach they will wear them.

[Menorah]

Rav Shapiro:

If an ehrlich yid wants to do the right thing, should the wife voluntarily not wear a shaitel and rather wear a tichel, in accordance with the majority opinions?

And should this voluntary decision be made solely by the husband? Solely by the wife? Or must it be agreed to by both?

[Rabbi Shapiro]

Rav Shapiro:

If an ehrlich yid wants to do the right thing, should the wife voluntarily not wear a shaitel and rather wear a tichel, in accordance with the majority opinions?

And should this voluntary decision be made solely by the husband? Solely by the wife? Or must it be agreed to by both?

It should be agreed to by both. But you should first speak to your own personal Rav before doing that, for lots of reasons.

[puzzles]

Rav Shapiro:

If an ehrlich yid wants to do the right thing, should the wife voluntarily not wear a shaitel and rather wear a tichel, in accordance with the majority opinions?

And should this voluntary decision be made solely by the husband? Solely by the wife? Or must it be agreed to by both?

Wouldn't it depend on if you are already married or not? It's one thing if a guy (or girl) goes out and makes it clear from the beginning that he doesn't want her to / she doesn't want to wear a sheitel. But once someone is already married, I wouldn't exactly call it the best-case scenario for a husband to come home from work one day and say, "that's it, get rid of your sheitel, we are voluntarily accepting this upon ourselves." It's not like she's wearing something which nobody reputable says is ok (for example, a too short skirt, or a too low cut top), and clothing/appearance is something extremely personal and important to a woman. I'm not saying that there's no room for discussion - but shouldn't there be just that: discussion? And the same for the flip side - I know many women who would be perfectly happy not to wear a sheitel, but they have one and wear one because their husbands want them to. Should she come home one day and say "no more sheitel, no ifs ands or buts about it"?

Also, I personally know of several situations where a woman (and her husband!) was willing to do away with her sheitel forever, but when the couple consulted their rav, they were told not to do that. I also know that, in places like England (I am not English; nobody attack me if it's not like this where you live; I know that it's like this in some places there, but I do not know all the details of all the little - and not-so-little places in the country), if a married woman walks out of her house in anything but her sheitel, it's like she's wearing pajamas, and isn't considered tzanua! So I don't think it would be so simple for someone in a place like that, for example, to just ditch the social norms, either.

At this point in history (and again, depending on where you live), you're making a statement by choosing not to wear a sheitel - you are associating yourself with any of various groups, and it's definitely not considered "normal" in most mainstream yeshivishe communities.

[Rabbi Shapiro]

That's one of the reasons I said it depends on husband and wife together, and that they should ask their own Rav before they do anything like this.

[JewishAttorney]

Just because they're willing to cover their hair doesn't mean they're willing to forgo their shaitlach. In fact, if they would have had the shaitlach they have today back then, it probably would have been much easier to convince the women to cover their hair.

We need to choose our battles. Let them be with their shaitlach.

Two follow up questions:

(1) What about the possibly-problematic phenomenon that modern day (Ashkenazi) married women expect it socially to appear at public functions in a sheitel? One time I saw an Ashkenazi lady married to a Sephardi gentleman wear a beautiful tichel but otherwise it seems to me that it would almost appear odd if not embarrassing for a standard Ashkenazi wife to appear with a tichel everywhere (they probably don't even have ones for social occasions). Doesn't it suggest that this is more than a heter or a custom but almost an "obligation" where many women can't imagine themselves otherwise? In fact, often times it is the Ashkenazi "less-yeshivish" crowd that ironically has more ladies with tichels than otherwise.

(2) Is there basis for the Chabad's position (and quotes of the Zohar) in considering sheitels the best head covering?

[Rabbi Shapiro]

(1) The Tichels that you are talking about that don't cover all the hair are not an improvement over the shaitels.

(2) They're definitely not the best. I imagine they say its better than wearing something that allows the hair to stick out. It means it's the best that they can expect from their people.

[Menorah]

In the most ideal scenario, would every eishes ish wear a tichel instead of a sheitel?

[Rabbi Shapiro]

In the most ideal scenario, would every eishes ish wear a tichel instead of a sheitel?

Depends on the tichel. They'd wear anything that covers all their hair without violating the spirit of the requirement to do so.

[Yet]

JewishAttorney -

In response to your first question, I think it might depend on which community you live in. Meaning not "in town" (NY, Lakewood), but I'm not talking about the small hick-towns either. I live in one of the larger, "out of town" communities, with a large spectrum of people. I am Ashkenazi, married to an Ashkenazi, and I wear a tichel or a very pretty pre-tied that I got for just such occasions to social events and simchas. Is it unusual? Definitely. Do I get compliments on it? Definitely. Do I get comments on it? Occasionally. (I guess most people generally keep comments and opinions like that to themselves if they have anything non-complimentary to say.) Was it slightly uncomfortable at the beginning? Yeah. But you know what, you get over it, and it can definitely be done if you make a decision to do so. Just a lot of people aren't willing (or able, necessarily, depending on personality, etc) to make that decision. And again, it has a lot to do with what their husband wants from them, as well. Enough reliable poskim say that it is ok to wear a sheitel (within certain guidelines, of course) that it isn't worth making a shalom bayis issue out of it. I am not the only person I know who has made this decision, and who does this - I have family members and friends (not a lot and not very many in the same city; it's not like I'm part of a "group") who have, for various reasons, decided to do it. So it's not unheard of. Unless, probably, if you live somewhere like NY or Lakewood, where you also stick out like a (very) sore thumb if you wear any color besides black, grey, navy, or brown, especially at a simcha.

[Rabbi Shapiro]

Enough reliable poskim say that it is ok to wear a sheitel (within certain guidelines, of course) that it isn't worth making a shalom bayis issue out of it.

I happen to agree with you as I mentioned above, but for the record, do you really know enough about which Poskim hold what, that you can Pasken - because yes, what you said is a Psak Halachah - on this question?

Again - I am not disagreeing with your Psak. I am questioning your qualifications to Pasken. The reason I am doing this is, what if you were to decide that in fact there are not enough Poskim to permit this that you should make a Sholom Bayis issue over it? Is this really your call? Or should you leave it to each family Rav to make such decisions?

[Yet]

You're right, and I'm sorry - I was not trying to pasken anything.
Where I was coming from is: (1) I was taught in a class by a teacher whom I consider very reliable that R' Elyashiv, ztz"l, is the main posek who matirs sheitlach today, although within certain guidelines (i.e. no white part, not past shoulder length, etc.) - please don't ask me for a source, as I do not have one besides for my notes from that class. And (2) I know people personally, who, as mentioned in other posts above, were told by their Rav (who was either a posek himself, or spoke to his Rebbi, a posek) to continue wearing a sheitel.
I would never make such a decision on my own without consulting a Rav first.
However, seeing as no one on this site could possible have known my thought processes and did not necessarily possess the knowledge that I do, I should have either elaborated or not said it.

Out of curiosity - is this issue one that a couple must ask a Rav about even if they are in total agreement on it? For example, let's say a husband and wife decided that they no longer felt comfortable with the wife wearing a sheitel, for any of various reasons, and wanted her to stop. Couldn't she just stop wearing her sheitel? Or would it be preferable to go to their Rav together and ask if that would be the proper course of action?

[Yet]

Also, rereading my post, I wasn't trying to make a definitive statement (although I know that I did do just that), but rather saying that many women feel (whether right or wrong) that because there are poskim who do hold that a sheitel is ok, it isn't worth it for them to make a shalom bayis issue out of not wearing one, when they know that "yesh al mi l'smoch" and they want to make their husbands happy.

[Rabbi Shapiro]

Out of curiosity - is this issue one that a couple must ask a Rav about even if they are in total agreement on it? For example, let's say a husband and wife decided that they no longer felt comfortable with the wife wearing a sheitel, for any of various reasons, and wanted her to stop. Couldn't she just stop wearing her sheitel? Or would it be preferable to go to their Rav together and ask if that would be the proper course of action?

They don't "must," but I'd recommend they do. The Seforim tell us that sometimes the Yetzer Horah gets us to focus on a Mitzvah or something good to distract us from an even more important Mitzvah. For this and other reasons, I'd recommend that when someone wants to do something unusual, especially if it is higher than his general level of Avodas Hashem in other areas, even if it done to serve Hashem, he should seek advice first.