Jump to content


Photo

Achdus


  • Please log in to reply
6 replies to this topic

#1 FS613

FS613

    Member

  • Members
  • 151 posts

Posted 27 July 2012 - 05:14 PM

L'Chvod Rabbi Shapiro, Shlita:

I have a question about the following. I read about it somewhere; but I forgot the exact details.

I read somewhere that during the days of King Achav, the Jews won wars, even though R"L they worshipped idols, because they had Sholom or Achdus among themselves, and they didn't speak Loshon Hora about each other.

Whereas, in the days of another king (I forget who), the Yidden were Tzadikim, but they didn't have Sholom or Achdus among themselves or spoke Loshon Hora (something like that), so they lost wars.

I don't remember all of the details correctly.

Rabbi, would you please correct my details, and would you please explain how the above worked.

Thank you.

#2 taon

taon

    Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 421 posts

Posted 31 July 2012 - 08:58 PM

I found this discussed by the Rav elsewhere :http://www.jewswithq...an-do-miracles/


The Yerushalmi says that the generation of Dovid HaMelech, though righteous, was not granted miracles due to the internal bickering and jealousy among the Jews. Because of those aveiros, when they went into battle, they were defeated. However, the generation of Achav would be victorious in battle, even though they were idol worshipers, because there was no Machlokes between them. Rav Meir Simcha explains, that when the Tzibur violates the Mitzvos (as in the case of bickering and jealousy) even if the individuals are righteous on their own, then Hashem's protection of the Tzibur was removed, and they fell in battle.


Is this what you meant?

#3 FS613

FS613

    Member

  • Members
  • 151 posts

Posted 01 August 2012 - 11:20 AM

Yes.

My question is:

Aren't mainstream Klal Yisroel not supposed to affiliate or have Achdus with non-observant Jews, so as not to give the "Reform" "religion," legitimacy?

In a sense, the idol worshipers were the "Reform" Jews of their time.

So wouldn't the success of the idol worshipers in battle, make them look "legitimate," even though there was no Machlokes among them?

I am confused and request that the Rav, Shlita, please clarify.

Thank you.

#4 Rabbi Shapiro

Rabbi Shapiro

    Member

  • Administrators
  • 1,423 posts

Posted 26 August 2012 - 04:38 PM

You mean idol-worshipers, not "non-religious" Jews. You are correct. But the reason we do not befriend them is not merely so as not to grant them legitimacy, but also because we are concerned they may influence us. There are other reasons as well.

But in any case, don't be confused. The Yerushalmi does not say that the Torah-abiding Jews were friends with the idol worshipers. it says that the idol worshipers, although they worshiped idols, still did not engage in antagonism against Jews. There is no question that the Jews in those days fulfilled the Mishna that demands הרחק משכן רע ואל תתחבר לרשע, and there is no question that they understood that the prohibiiton of Loshon Horah does not apply to idol worshipers. All Chazal mean is that the Jews - even those who worshiped idols - fulfilled the Halachos of Bain Adam Lechaveiro according to whatever the Halachah required. It does not say what the details of those Halachos are. So it means, whoever they were not allowed to speak Loshon Horah about, they did not; whoever they were allowed to befriend, they did; whoever they were obligated to love, they loved. All according to whatever the Halachos are. It does not say the Torah Jews loved those who the Rambam says it is an obligation not to love.

Ans even the idol worshipers, although they worshiped idols, still loved and respected the Torah Jews. That is a much greater level of idol worshiper than we have today, where the idol worshipers denigrate our Talmidei Chachamim and Torah-abiding Jews. The idol worshipers of those days still respected good Jews, even though they gave in to their Yetzer Horah to worship idols.

Because of that, the Jews were saved. Because they loved and befriended those that the Torah required them to love and befriend, Hashem granted them salvation.

#5 FS613

FS613

    Member

  • Members
  • 151 posts

Posted 28 August 2012 - 09:20 AM

So idol worshipers vs. non-religious Jews means that

the idol worshipers kept the Torah but gave in to their Yetzer Hora to worship idols,

whereas non-religious Jews don't keep the Torah?

Am I understanding correctly?

If I am, then how could a Jew keep the Torah but still bow down to idols?

Didn't he understand that the idol was just a piece of stone with no power, and that Hashem is the only power in the universe?

Thank you.

#6 Rabbi Shapiro

Rabbi Shapiro

    Member

  • Administrators
  • 1,423 posts

Posted 28 August 2012 - 09:32 AM

the idol worshipers kept the Torah but gave in to their Yetzer Hora to worship idols,

Correct. (Of course, just because a person worships idols doesn't mean he doesn't have to keep the rest of the Torah. In those days in general that's how it was).


how could a Jew keep the Torah but still bow down to idols? Didn't he understand that the idol was just a piece of stone with no power, and that Hashem is the only power in the universe?

The short answer is that in those days the Yetzer Horah for idolatry was similar to the "normal" urges we all have. It was related to a person's natural inclination for spirituality. When they dismantled the Yetzer Horah for Avodah Zorah they severed an important element of that inclination, and prophecy disappeared together with the urge to worship idols. In other words, there was a spirituality then that allowed prophecy as well as a nigh irresistible urge to "connect" somehow to the spiritual element even in physical things. Obviously we can't understand this urge today because Chazal destroyed it.

Didn't he understand that the idol was just a piece of stone with no power, and that Hashem is the only power in the universe?

I can also just imagine all sorts of rationalizations idol worshipers may have had then. Perhaps some said, "Yes, Hashem is the only power in the universe, but we have to do Hashtadlus, and ain somchin al hanes, and since it is well known that praying to idols works, we have to do it. In fact, those "Chareidim" who refuse to bow down to idols aren't living in the real world, and they don't contribute anything to the well-being of the Klall, because they just learn all day and don't do idol-worship."

#7 shaya

shaya

    Member

  • Members
  • 108 posts

Posted 29 August 2012 - 09:00 AM

I can also just imagine all sorts of rationalizations idol worshipers may have had then. Perhaps some said, "Yes, Hashem is the only power in the universe, but we have to do Hashtadlus, and ain somchin al hanes, and since it is well known that praying to idols works, we have to do it. In fact, those "Chareidim" who refuse to bow down to idols aren't living in the real world, and they don't contribute anything to the well-being of the Klall, because they just learn all day and don't do idol-worship."


:D
Start with God - the first step in learning is bowing down to God; only fools thumb their noses at such wisdom and learning.