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Non-Jewish Government Over Eretz Yisroel


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#1 FS613

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 10:49 AM

L'Chvod Rabbi Shapiro, Shlita:

 

If Eretz Yisroel were ruled by a non-Jewish government, instead of the Zionist government having a "state" -

 

Would the Jews who live there still be allowed to protest (according to the Torah),

if say, for example, C"V the non-Jewish government were to allow the following within Eretz Yisroel:

 

- a parking lot to be open on Shabbos, to allow cars to drive in and out

 

- a mixed-gender swimming pool

 

- a Toeivah-pride parade

 

- a crematorium to operate

 

- drafting of women into the army

 

Would Jews still be allowed (according to the Torah) to protest these issues as violating the sanctity of Eretz Yisroel and the Torah?

 

(Eretz Yisroel's borders as defined in the Torah, not the borders of "Medinat Yisroel")

 

Thank you.



#2 Rabbi Shapiro

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:12 AM

Allowed? Yes, but in the same way we protest these things in other lands, such as gay marriages in the USA. But there would be no more reason to protest in EY than in any other non-Jewish nation that allows these things, and so we would treat it as such.

 

The main reason for protests against anti-Torah actions of the Israeli government is in order to counter the impression that the non-Jewish world (and unfortunately the ignorant part of the Jewish world too) has, that the actions of the Stat of Israel are associated with Jewishness, the Jewish people, or Judaism. People think that Israel represents the Jewish people, and that is a terrible misconception - and a terrible Chilul Hashem - purposely perpetrated by the Zionists.

 

If Bernie Madoff would go around saying he represents the Jewish Nation and people would think his actions represent our collective will or that of our representative Mr. Madoff, we wold scream at the top of our lungs to the world that it is not so. That is what is happening now. Not with Madoff, but with the State of Israel. That would not apply if the Ottomans would be in charge of Palestine.

 

There are other reasons to object to governmental anti-Torah actions, such as we do with gay marriage, or Metzitza bePeh issues. Of course, our methods are different in those cases, because our goal is different. If the Ottomans were running Eretz Yisroel, we'd still try to protect our rights the way we do in America.



#3 achasshoalti

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 04:00 PM

I had a similar question re: the protests re: drafting bochrim...would we protest as loudly if this were taking place in a diff country or in EY under a gentile gov"t or would we say that it is reasonable to draft all able bodied young men for defense of the country...of courses we would try to avoid the draft, but would we have the same emotional anger & intensity.

 

If the latter, why is it diff under the zionists? (it reminds me of what the brisker rov said that rav blau was a bigger tzioni bec he trusted the zionists wouldn't kill him when he protested, here too we seem to expect the tzionim to understand the koach of limud hatorah...etc...



#4 Rabbi Shapiro

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 08:18 PM

The emotional anger and intensity is because the reason they want to draft us, is in order to change us into them, not because we are able bodied.



#5 FS613

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 10:46 AM

But there would be no more reason to protest in EY than in any other non-Jewish nation that allows these things, and so we would treat it as such.

 

But wouldn't Jews protest to a non-Jewish government about the actions listed in my first post above,

because these actions also violate the Kidusha of Eretz Yisroel (besides violating the Torah)?

Lands outside Eretz Yisroel don't have the Kidusha that Eretz Yisroel has.

 

Thank you.



#6 Rabbi Shapiro

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 02:02 PM

Aveiros are aveiros, and although in EY they are more severe, that it just relative. That is not the reason for the protests.