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גזירת שמד - Drafting Yeshiva Bochurim In Israel


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#1 Rabbi Shapiro

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 06:05 PM

Attached File  ג' מאמרים.pdf   88.92KB   570 downloads

 

Please publicize this as far and wide as you can. It is from Rav Dovid Solovechik שליט"א on our attitude towards Israel's attempt to draft Yeshiva bochurim into their army. There are very few people that understand the real issue here, and that makes the attached information all the more important. Please disseminate. (I also sent this out to the JWQ email list.)



#2 jerusalem123

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 08:42 PM

Could you translate it?



#3 Rabbi Shapiro

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 08:45 PM

I wish I had the time. If someone out there will, I'll gladly post it.



#4 taon

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 12:03 PM

Here's the first part of a rough and somewhat abridged translation. I would appreciate if someone could proofread it for accuracy so it can be used as well.

 

The Beis Halevi in Parshas SHemos on how we exist among the nations. Tehillm Kuf Hay  says Hashem made the mitzrim hate us. The Beis HaLevi asks,  why is this included in a tehillim listing praises of Hashem’s kindness?

He refers to a Medrash Rabbah (Shemos Aleph Ches) that when Yosef passed away Bnei Yisrael stopped doing bris milah and said they would be like the mitzrim. Because of this, Hashem transformed the mitzrim’s love into hatred, a new king arose and made decrees against us.  The Beis HaLevi says our true identity(? What’s a better translation for Tzura here) that we are a holy nation fully separated from the nations, different from them completely. So it says in Medrash Rabbah Shir Hashirim 1:21, Just as oil doesn’t mix with liquids, so too we don’t mix with the nations, (something in parenthesis I diidn’t get) and Hashem gave us the Torah and mitzvos to separate us. When we were in mitzraim, even though we weren’t given the mitzvos, and we didn’t really have a a prohibition against trying to be like the mitzrim (not sure if I got this part exactly right), we were already starting to mix with the mitzrim and get affected by their tumah, and this is the opposite of the ikar of the mitzvos, which are to keep us separate.  After we started to remove what separates us form the mitzrim, Hashem separated us(?) form them by making the hate us. This was not a punishment but a protection.

The Beis Halevi goes further. We did not need this tovah until after we stopped doing bris milah. If we had kept it and kept separate, it wouldn’t have been necessary and they would have continued to like us as before.

He writes further, this is what we see (B’chush?) in this long galus in the lands of Hagar (referring to Arab and eastern countries?) and Roman lands which every day increase their hatred. Logically, the hatred should leave and stay minimal, just like anything which is for a period of time and then ends. But the true cause of this is as we explained, that when we lessen the separations given through the Torah, through Torah and mitzvos, Hashem increases their hatred so we will be kept separate.  Only through keeping  Torah and mitzvos will we gain favor in their eyes. Such was the matter in our days in Germany, that there the hatred and anti-Semitism increased because we drew close with the goyim more, and the Ratzon Hashem is that we stay separate, and so their hatred is good for us to keep us from mixing. Such are the words of the Beis Halevi, in short.



#5 taon

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 11:40 AM

Not so clear on everything here

 

Even though the Beis HaLevi said this regarding us and the nations, it applies, with all its particulars, to the separation between Shomrei Torah UMitzvos  and keep their lives full of yiddishkeit(?), and between freethinkers(?)  who uproot Torah and cast off its yoke.  The attitude and approach of frum yidden to these freethinkers  must be like David Hamelech said in Tehillim 139 “Surely, those who hate You, I hate,  And those who come up against You I fight; with a complete hatred I hate them, they are to me my enemies.” “Complete hatred” means all that it is possible hatred(??) in the word, so there should be with (there is by?) these freethinkers, because “they are to me my enemies” mamash enemies, exactly as it sounds, (for example not less than the hatred of Hamas towards Am Yisroel);  therefore this needs to be the conduct of those who fear Hashem, to hate these freethinkers who uproot Torah, completely.  If this is so, the result is a reversal, that they wont hate us, but instead they will take appraisement(?) towards us, and treat us with respect.  Not so if we befriend them and mix with them, love them, and live with them as one. Then  the opposite will happen, they will come to hate us,  and their hatred will grow into anti-Semitism, (not sure how to translate Norah Noraos).

??? we are all witnesses to see big signs with false words of incitement, appearing  in the roads of the city on buses, to incite the crowds, that kollel men receive annuity of about 3500 shekalim a  month, while soldiers receive 350 a month.  And I ask, is this not lighting a blazing fire of hate in the hearts of freethinkers, until it’s possible ??? also the paper of Hitler ym”sh in Germany Der Sturmer  known ???  at length ??? Goebels and Streicher  ym”sh do not do this again???.  Der Sturmer  did act to stir up hatred in matters like this, and if so(?) this is really a shame and disgrace to them, to be like the Sturmer.  If there is in them a bit of humanity, a little mentchlikeit, they wouldn’t do this to turn the people aginst the Chareidim, to slander citizens openly. This is a shame and disgrace to those who do it, and this is besides the essence of it being complete lies, no bears and no forest(?). But there is to this incitement a true cause, since we befriended(?) them and lived(?) with them with love, and joined together with them, the opposite happened, that they turned around and hated us more.

I will tell what I saw in Eretz Yisroel about  70 years ago in kiruv. in the spring of 5706 (1946), I was involved in the shlichus of the Griz zt”l to the secular kibbutzim of Hashomer Hatzair and Mapai. When I entered, immediately they approached me and asked what I needed, and received me with cheery faces, and treated me with derech eretz, even though they saw I am adorned with peyos and a beard.  They honored me a lot and gave me drink and fruits to eat, despite seeing that I am a Charedi belonging(?) to Charedim. And I ask, are they not the low end(?) or Tzionim as is well known, that everything that has a smell of religion they draw away from, and they rage with full strength against Judaism and Yiddishkeit, and have a shitah of fighting with religiousness; but they still treated us at that time with derech eretz and menschlikeit.  And never even dared to ignite fire and inflame stam hatred empty and meaningless, with the frequent pressure from their papers, like we see today, and this speaks volumes.  In truth this is the secret of the matter, that when we want to draw close to them, Hashem makes them move away from us and hate us.

 

more to come BE"H



#6 jonah

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 10:04 PM

Thanks!



#7 Aurbach

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 08:19 AM

1) The Bais Ha-Leivi says that the more we assimilate/are friendly with the non-Jews, the more they persecute us, but the more we separate from them and behave like a people that has nothing to do with them, the more they leave us alone.

 

2) The same rule applies to the Zionists who wish to destroy the Torah. The more we befriend them the more they persecute us, but the more we separate from them and have nothing to do with them, the more they leave us alone.

 

3) The extent to which we are obligated to separate ourselves from the Zionists is תכלית שנאה שנאתים לאויבים היו לי. That is to say, because they are Hashem's enemies, they are our enemies, even more than they are the enemies of the Arabs. The Arabs hate the Zionists because of a dispute over territory. Our dispute with them is over רוחניות. The Zionists are enemies of Hashem and the enemies of Hashem have to be our enemies. If we do not look at them as our bitter enemies we have not fulfilled our obligation.

 

תכלית שנאה שנאתים means we must loathe them with the epitome of loathing , that is to say, the most intense loathing possible in that can exist in the world. If our loathing is anything less than that (e.g. if it is less than the Arabs’ hate towards them) we have not fulfilled our obligation.

 

4)  If we would have followed the path of שנאה and separation, they would not be persecuting us now. Their persecutions are not only the draft but the antisemitic lies they spread about religious Jews. Their antisemitic rhetoric in their papers is similar to that which occurred in Nazi Germany in Nazi newspapers. Instead of loathing them, we unfortunately tried to partner with them, join with them, and befriend them. Without a doubt, had we fulfilled our obligation and treated them like the enemies of Hashem that they are, they would not be trying to draft us now. The Zionists understand not to try to draft the Arabs. The Zionists should understand the same way that they should not try to draft us, as we are their enemies much more than the Arabs are.They once tried to draft the Arabs and the Arabs threatened to make intifada, at which point the Zionists backed down. If the Zionists do not realize that we are their enemies as well, we have failed.

 

5)  Therefore, we should tell the Zionists that we will not go to their army, because they are our enemy and we have nothing to do with them. There can be no compromises with the enemies of Hashem. There is nothing to discuss. Their army is not our army, they are our enemies, they are Hashem’s enemies, and we will not serve.



#8 54321

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:15 AM

What is Rav Shapiro's  approach to
answering someone who says, "You want gov money, then you must shoulder the burden like we do..."  

 

After all, all the charedim in the kenesset (who meet with gedolei yisrael) try to get more and more money?



#9 Rabbi Shapiro

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 07:38 AM

54321, on 20 Mar 2013 - 12:19, said:

What is Rav Shapiro's approach to
answering someone who says, "You want gov money, then you must shoulder the burden like we do..."



After all, all the charedim in the kenesset (who meet with gedolei yisrael) try to get more and more money?

It depends what the question is. If you are asking, from a practical viewpoint, how the Yeshivas will get money if Israel conditions funds on going to their army, there is one answer. If the question is what is the moral justification for taking money if you don't join in the army, there is another answer.

First, the practical question.

The answer to that is: Keep your money. If that is the condition, it is not worth it. All the Yeshivas did was take what was offered to them. If now a condition is being put on that offer that we cannot accept, such as perhaps bowing to idols, standing on our head and spitting wooden nickels, or going to the army, then keep your money. But - just as you have a right to not give money, we have a right to vote you out of office for doing so. We have our values and you have yours. We are allowed to vote out politicians who promote gay marriages whether or not you agree with our values, and we have a right to vote out politicians that want to draft yeshiva guys or refuse to give money to the Yeshivas. We also have a right to protest and exert whatever pressure in our power.

And, as I wrote elsewhere, if Israel stops giving money to the Yeshivos, it may be the best thing that Israel ever did for the Yeshivos. We'll survive. בכל דור ודור עומדים עלינו לכלתנו והקב"ה מצילנו מידם.

As far as the question taking money without "Sharing the Burden" and all that, besides for the fact that nobody is taking except what is offered and there can be no moral claim against that, the more important answer is, first, our expemtion is payment for services rendered by the frum community to Israel as per the agreement with Ben Gurion, and, even more importantly, you cannot have a moral claim against the fish because he learned how to eat the bait without getting hooked.

The only reason the Zionists support the Yeshivos is to have an influence over them, and to purchase the votes of the Yeshiva community (which is itself influence). They do not support Yeshivos out of the goodness of their heart. As we know, they would like to break our community and make us as much as possible like them- like warrior Hebrew who על חרבם תחיה, as opposed to Bnei Torah "golus" Jews who love peace and spirituality. Besides their self-inflicted Jewish self-hate and guilt, and besides their hate of the "golus Jew"; (and besides their hatred that Chazal describe: גדולה השנאה ששונאין עמי הארץ את תלמידי חכמים יותר ממה ששונאין האומות את ישראל), and besides their frumophobic hatred for Bnei Torah, they currently feel themselves besieged.

 

Besieged by the Arabs on one side, the National Religious on another, and what they call the "Chareidi" community on the third. Where once upon a time they thought we would disappear (due to their efforts), they now see themselves quickly losing power, the hegemony changing into the hands of their declared enemies from all sides.

So they want to de-Chareidize the Chareidim, by sending them to the army, or at least, getting them into the "workforce." It is the destruction of our lifestyle and values they are pursuing, and the burden they really are interested in us sharing, is the burden of their maintaining power over us. Their burden is indeed too much for them to bear. גדול עונם מנשוא.

That's first. Second, Ben Gurion did not exempt Yeshiva boys from the army out of the goodness of his heart. He was afraid that the frum community would not support his petition for Statehood - which they would not - and that he would not be able to obtain statehood if the Jews themselves would not want it. And the Agudah, who figured that Statehood was unfortunately coming anyway and the frum Jews may as well get something in return, told Ben Gurion that they will not support the State unless they don't institute a draft for Yeshiva boys (there were other conditions too, not all of which Ben Gurion agreed to).

 

Ben Gurion figured without the frum Jews' support he cannot claim the Jews want a state, and the frum Jews (in the Agudah) figured Ben Gurion will anyway get a state without them, so they have nothing to lose by supporting him, since he will get his state anyway, and at least this way we won't have to break our lifestyle. So the Agudah demanded, in return for their support, the exemption. Take it or leave it they said.

Ben Gurion took it. He agreed that Yehsiva boys will not be drafted. This was not a gift from Ben Gurion. It was payment for services rendered. The Agudah paid with their souls, which they held would be stolen anyway, but they at least tried to barter for something in return.

Ben Gurion figured he was getting a good deal, because shortly, Zionism would destroy the frum lifestyle anyway, through assimilation and other, more forceful means.

Ben Gurion was blind to the power of Torah. Now his heirs want to take back the deal he made because it was a bad investment. Sorry. it doesn't work that way.

So tell your friend, first of all, that there was a deal, fair and square, that was paid for in full, and we have no moral obligation to return what we purchased with our souls.

But more importantly than that, as Rav Chaim Brisker said, the Zionists do not want to shmad Jews in order to have a state; they want to have a state in order to shmad Jews. The main goal of Zionism was to change the Jewish religious Klall Yisroel into the Hebrew Nation of Israel. To eradicate us and supplant us with them. And today, when they see the hegemony shifting, they are even more desperate to shmad us and make us into them. It's not that they care if we keep Shabbos or put on Tefillin; they don't. The Shmad today is to make us accept their lifestyle,and their values, even if we are religious.

So they are trying to tear us away from our mother's milk - the Yeshivas - and slowly make us into them. רחמנא לצלן

They always wanted this, but now, more so than ever. The reason they gave money to yeshivas is for the same reason the fisherman gives the fish a worm. But we learned (for the most part) how to eat the worm without getting hooked.

Now when they see their worms created a population of fish that is growing so rapidly that the entire ecosystem is changing, and that the fish are taking over, they want to stop feeding us. Fine. But don't dare claim that the fish you tried to hook owes you anything for dangling your bait in the water. The fact that we learned to take the money without coming under your influence (mostly) means we won the game you wanted to play.

The Zionists came to Eretz HaKodesh, stole the name "Yisroel" from us, represented themselves as the spokespeople for the Am Yisroel, and their government as the Jewish State, and got into wars with the Arabs and caused thousands of Jews to be killed in those wars - which we knew would happen. They turned our Holy Land into a battlefield with external enemies, and internal Shmad. All we asked them for was to keep the "status quo." To leave us alone to learn in peace. They are the interlopers. They alone insisted on creating this "burden" that they now want us to share. They forced it down our throats. With shmad and physical violence. The damage they did to Klall Yisroel is not nearly close to repaid by the money they give to Yeshivas. They owe us a lot more than they can ever pay in Olam Hazeh. Now they claim we have to "share the burden" they created against our will with treachery and shmad. And the real motive behind their actions is still treachery and shmad.

No way. We will not move. We will not change our lifestyle and become like them, come what may.

Tell your friend that the fisherman has no moral right to demand anything from the fish in return for the bait he took from his hook.

Especially after he stole so much from that fish.

Their motive here is Shmad. To make us like them.

No thanks.

 

(Please see the attached .pdf. It is being spread around in EY these days, and it explains the issue quite well.)



#10 taon

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 12:00 PM

Thanks for the summary Aurbach


I will tell what I saw in Eretz Yisroel about 70 years ago in kiruv. in the spring of 5706 (1946), I was involved in the shlichus of the Griz zt”l to the secular kibbutzim of Hashomer Hatzair and Mapai. When I entered, immediately they approached me and asked what I needed, and received me with cheery faces, and treated me with derech eretz, even though they saw I am adorned with peyos and a beard. They honored me a lot and gave me drink and fruits to eat, despite seeing that I am a Charedi belonging(?) to Charedim. And I ask, are they not the low end(?) or Tzionim as is well known, that everything that has a smell of religion they draw away from, and they rage with full strength against Judaism and Yiddishkeit, and have a shitah of fighting with religiousness; but they still treated us at that time with derech eretz and menschlikeit. And never even dared to ignite fire and inflame stam hatred empty and meaningless, with the frequent pressure from their papers, like we see today, and this speaks volumes. In truth this is the secret of the matter, that when we want to draw close to them, Hashem makes them move away from us and hate us.
Already now in the beginning of creating the Tzioni, when they were beginning to pick up(?) a head, Rav Chaim Brisker zt”l wrote strongly ??? against them. And I heard from my master the Griz that he said, in his time they wrote agains them, and publicized this information, but the people didn’t understand wny he came out so strongly. But already(?) they all saw the bad that Zionism brought to Am Yisroel, and came out against the Zionists. Agudah in Poland and Yerushalaim were also very zealous in this, and fought strongly against them, already seeing the evil it was bringing to us.
So too all the years that we fought against the Tzioni, when everyone saw and recognized their bad in every place, until they started to speak(?) about the medinah to Am Yisroel, from then on they slowly began to mix with them, from then on going down and down, and slowly the deep-rooted hand conflict towards them faded away, and in it’s place, to fight alongside them in all matters(??), beginning partnerships with them. the Griz zt”l gave a mashal to enlighten the matter, comparing it to a train that had its locomotive standing(??) in the wrong direction, west instead of east, so too to stand with the Tzioni, we are turning around and partnering(?) with them in effect(??).

What can we say about a situation like today, that a generation grew up that already isn’t concerned(?) about him at all, and don’t feel shocked at all on the situation that befell yiddishkeit, not at all protesting and not demonstrating because all feelings are blocked up towards the pritzus( in this context lawlessness?) of the generation. Then in the years 5708-5715 (1947/8-1954/5) by each breaching Yerushalaim stormed(?) and was horrified. Also in the time that they were establishing mixed swimming pools in ramat gan, I remember how the village(?) then stormed powerfully, and if like today(?) anything like this passes in silence and already they aren’t concerned. Stores are open on Shabbos kodesh, ??? houses of selling(?) another kind of meat(?) in many places, and there are also missionaries. The situation today is very ?? bad, few days pass without ceremonies(?) converting about 20 Jews to Christianity, and no one speaks out. Everything is desolate and being destroyed (?), eradicating all Judaism from the generation, and all because we drew close to them, until our sensitivity was closed to the pritzus, and therefore all that was before us is forgotten and lost, like a steep fall(?), from a high roof to a deep pit.
And look, now after we drew them close for many years, and mixed well with them, now we see the consequence, they say all Bnei HaYeshiva should go serve in the military, and the incitement was strengthened until the whole country says these things, that all be recruited to the army.
IN the year 5709, when the politicians were speaking (?) about drafting bnei yeshiva, the heads of the army explained their stance, and declared that they did not want the Charedim in the army. They would put up Shuls and make minyanim and set up Batei Midrashim to learn, and would need mikvaos, who needs them? And this was spread in all the newspapers. But now that we have joined with them, and showed them the way(?), ???, therefore this trouble came on us, that they want to draft the all the bachurim from yeshivos, this awful decree, that from it the yeshivos will close and Bnei Yisroel will be mevatel Torah, Rachmona Litzlan.
The matter is clear, that if we hate them and separate from them, and be careful to stay far from them, the order of ??? bnei yeshivos against(?) the army, will be withdrawn today, the order already had been withdrawn about 60 years, and no doubt it was(?) withdrawn to be still in power(?). Why(how?) are we different from the Arabs who they don’t dare tie up to army service. And now(?) with clear design(?) and the tal law, in the beginning of their formation, they try to arrange dialogue with the Arabs in question, that they also need to join, at least in sheirut leumi, the arabs respond together, and reject the demand outright, and even threaten and say that if they are conscripted, another intifada would break out, and all that’s happened so far would be like a mashal to what they would bring onto them. Since the heads of the country saw their refusal, immediately they abandoned it, and the matter against us will go likewise, if we refuse their order to enlist with all force.
Let us see and understand(?), it is upon us to detest the zionists more than the arabs do, because their hatred is based on fighting over land, and our hatred is because they trample the Torah, and uproot yiddishkeit, and they are ememies against Hashem, and they wish to take our lives from us, because is not the Torah our life as we say each day “Heim Chayenu”, and without the life of Torah it isn’t life. If we reacognize and understand this, and feel that they want to kill us, we will fight them with purpose, and hate them more than the Arabs do, and we don’t fall into notions like this, and it won’t come onto their minds to compel us to take part in their military service, and to go to us with force, to force a draft on out bachurim who fear and dread the Word of Hashem. There is matter(?) to not ?? against them(?) any force to draft, and ???, to to fight with us shoulder to shoulder, just like by us, we hate the medina openly without fear, because they are from our enemies, and we are against them, and if we cry out so immediately in the beginning they wont touch out sons for bad, and they will leave us to our lives, seeing our determination to refuse to with all out(?) strength.
However, today the situation is the opposite, originally we wanted nothing to do with them, now we mix with them and draw near to them, and want to benefit(?) ???, come and prosecute us with this draft, saying if we benefit we also have obligations.. But if Am Yisroel is accustomed properly(?), and we have the correct custom(?) of “Your enemies I hate and those who rise against you I fight”, and we seize in the depths of our hearts that Zionism is a bad thing, and the medinah uproots the Torah, a “treif pig(??)” and it is worse than missionaries and worse than Communism, then this tzara wouldn’t come on us, and there wouldn’t be taking shape(?), just the opposite, they wouldn’t touch us at all or want us to join.
And now what is there for us to do, what is the obligation of every talmid and ben yeshiva? ???, the whole generation is covered in darkness, in any case our generation hasbgreat maalos, there are many students in yeshivos ketanos, who learn with mesiras nefesh, with geshmak. I once entered a yeshiva ketana and my heart was widened(?) seeing how they were immersed in limud Torah, and they wanted only Torah and yiras Shamayim. And so too the precious studnets learning in yeshiva gedolos, who til ad delve into Torah without other considerations(?). Not so at a time(in the past?), that the parents sent their children to secular schools, today they all send their children only to Talmud Torahs and Batei Chinuch Ksherim(?) for daughters, all wanted the Torah upbringing. Klall Yisroel wants to hear the word of Torah and daas Torah, Klall Yisroel is good, and want good(?), but ??? direct the congregation on their opinions, and ??? young hearts and divert their minds from learning Torah.
In any case it is incumbent on us to strengthen ourselves, it is obligatory for every Ben Torah and Ben Yeshiva to strengthen himself greatly in learning Torah, and Bnei Torah must put aside all the side nonsense, and take themselves with a;lll their strength tolearn Torah, and toil in it, and to comprehend it, and all within tahor yiras shamayim. To ask good questions, difficult Rambams, Rabbi Akiva Eigers, Rabbeinu Chaim Halevi and others, not questions without thinking, without considering them, which prevent understanding, but consider the pashat first before asking. It is written “If you will go in My ways and guard My mitzvos”, that you will delve into Torah, and delve into Yiras SHamayim(?), and in this zechus there will be salvation for the whole generation as Hashem will have mercy on us.


Edited by taon, 31 March 2013 - 01:16 PM.


#11 achasshoalti

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 12:08 PM

 
 
Rav Moshe Sternbuch recently wrote the following letter criticizing the Israeli government's decrees against Chareidi Jews.  I have verified that it is genuine.

%D7%93%D7%A2%27%27%D7%AA+%D7%A8%D7%91%D7
 
For a larger, printable copy of the letter click here:


#12 ilavHashem

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 06:33 PM

I dnt want to question a gadols words
I want to understand
Am i really being told to hate another jew?
Wat abt religious zionists ... Daati leumi? Do i hate them to?
And is tht the excuse? We hate u so by definition we cnt join ur army?
Wat abt having a new nachal chareidi tht wud truly b religious with time set aside to learning?
Just Qs... Nt trying to b argumentative... Just been bugging me since these talks strtd up recently

Also, somthing i often hear people argue tht seems valid to me so id lhonestly like to hear an answer
How is it ok for the chareidim to b living off gov money (a very large percentage do... The men dont work and thy need the money) and nt giv anything bak to the country
Not even talking army... But rather even going iut to work so thy can support themselves without so much help from the gov

I tried the... "But Torah makes the world go round n thts the essence of the world...."
N dnt say the typical "but the arabs do the same"
Also i heard somone say " arent Jews supposed to b bnei melachim? How do thy allow themselves to live in such dirt and poverty" n trust me ive walked thru bnei brak... Dirt n poverty can practically describe the feel of the city right behind the kedusha n Torah tht many fail to see

#13 taon

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 10:28 AM


Am i really being told to hate another jew?
Wat abt religious zionists ... Daati leumi? Do i hate them to?
 

He is speaking about those who disclude themselves from Judaism, the apikorsim.

People are fine will calling those who hate Jews or Israel anti-semites, but don't realize it's even worse those who hate Hashem and Judaism.

 

And is tht the excuse? We hate u so by definition we cnt join ur army?

I don't think that's where he was going. I think he was saying that this gezeira is a result of us mixing and accepting irreligiousness (not in the sense that they are ignoraant, but that they are against it. Or, even if it's  just a lack or knowledge, it's still harmful to mix.).

Wat abt having a new nachal chareidi tht wud truly b religious with time set aside to learning?

If we were the only ones available, sure. But if it was only the Charedi there, perhaps there wouldnt be need for an army. Or a state to bein with. But they don't need thse Yeshiva bachurim. there are plenty of others for them to draft, many secular Jews aren't int he army either. So why start witht he front lines? When they've finished drafting doctors, and politicians, and the mossad, and police, and air force and whoever else into the infantry, then they can start asking Yeshiva boys. Also, i doubt that such a nachal charedi would work. I dont think the army would want it to work as it should.

 

How is it ok for the chareidim to b living off gov money (a very large percentage do... The men dont work and thy need the money) and nt giv anything bak to the country

 

They're being paid to learn, what's the issue? It's a very small amount, actually. There are people who get much more and do nothing in reurn. The Charedi who do take government money (many don't) do much more for the country. But if these people dont appreciate the value of Torah, ask them to look up the annual spending of the israeli government. of the amount of gemachim in meah shearim.

Also i heard somone say " arent Jews supposed to b bnei melachim? How do thy allow themselves to live in such dirt and poverty

What's wrong with poverty? The Gemrah says poverty befits Jews. We have a better track record during times of poverty. King Shlomo without his throne is still King Shlomo.



#14 taon

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 01:17 PM

Edited the rest of the first maamar, stilll a little unclear, hopefully i can get the next two up quicker after Yom Tov.



#15 taon

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 08:20 PM

Second maamar

 

The Beis Halevi in Parshas SHemos on how we exist among the nations. Tehillm Kuf Hay  says Hashem made the mitzrim hate us. The Beis HaLevi asks,  why is this included in a tehillim listing praises of Hashem’s kindness?

He refers to a Medrash Rabbah (Shemos Aleph Ches) that when Yosef passed away Bnei Yisrael stopped doing bris milah and said they would be like the mitzrim. Because of this, Hashem transformed the mitzrim’s love into hatred, a new king arose and made decrees against us.  The Beis HaLevi says our true identity(? What’s a better translation for Tzura here) that we are a holy nation fully separated from the nations, different from them completely. So it says in Medrash Rabbah Shir Hashirim 1:21, Just as oil doesn’t mix with liquids, so too we don’t mix with the nations, (something in parenthesis I diidn’t get) and Hashem gave us the Torah and mitzvos to separate us. When we were in mitzraim, even though we weren’t given the mitzvos, and we didn’t really have a a prohibition against trying to be like the mitzrim (not sure if I got this part exactly right), we were already starting to mix with the mitzrim and get affected by their tumah, and this is the opposite of the ikar of the mitzvos, which are to keep us separate.  After we started to remove what separates us form the mitzrim, Hashem separated us(?) form them by making the hate us. This was not a punishment but a protection.

The Beis Halevi goes further. We did not need this tovah until after we stopped doing bris milah. If we had kept it and kept separate, it wouldn’t have been necessary and they would have continued to like us as before.

He writes further, this is what we see (B’chush?) in this long galus in the lands of Hagar (referring to Arab and eastern countries?) and Roman lands which every day increase their hatred. Logically, the hatred should leave and stay minimal, just like anything which is for a period of time and then ends. But the true cause of this is as we explained, that when we lessen the separations given through the Torah, through Torah and mitzvos, Hashem increases their hatred so we will be kept separate.  Only through keeping  Torah and mitzvos will we gain favor in their eyes. Such was the matter in our days in Germany, that there the hatred and anti-Semitism increased because we drew close with the goyim more, and the Ratzon Hashem is that we stay separate, and so their hatred is good for us to keep us from mixing. Such are the words of the Beis Halevi, in short.

Even though the Beis HaLevi said this regarding us and the nations, it applies, with all its particulars, to the separation between Shomrei Torah UMitzvos  and keep their lives full of yiddishkeit(?), and between freethinkers(?)  who uproot Torah and cast off its yoke.  The attitude and approach of frum yidden to these freethinkers  must be like David Hamelech said in Tehillim 139 “Surely, those who hate You, I hate,  And those who come up against You I fight; with a complete hatred I hate them, they are to me my enemies.” “Complete hatred” means all that it is possible hatred(??) in the word, so there should be with (there is by?) these freethinkers, because “they are to me my enemies” mamash enemies, exactly as it sounds, (for example not less than the hatred of Hamas towards Am Yisroel);  therefore this needs to be the conduct of those who fear Hashem, to hate these freethinkers who uproot Torah, completely.  If this is so, the result is a reversal, that they wont hate us, but instead they will take appraisement(?) towards us, and treat us with respect.  Not so if we befriend them and mix with them, love them, and live with them as one. Then  the opposite will happen, they will come to hate us,  and their hatred will grow into anti-Semitism, (not sure how to translate Norah Noraos).

??? we are all witnesses to see big signs with false words of incitement, appearing  in the roads of the city on buses, to incite the crowds, that kollel men receive annuity of about 3500 shekalim a  month, while soldiers receive 350 a month.  And I ask, is this not lighting a blazing fire of hate in the hearts of freethinkers, until it’s possible ??? also the paper of Hitler ym”sh in Germany Der Sturmer  known ???  at length ??? Goebels and Streicher  ym”sh do not do this again???.  Der Sturmer  did act to stir up hatred in matters like this, and if so(?) this is really a shame and disgrace to them, to be like the Sturmer.  If there is in them a bit of humanity, a little mentchlikeit, they wouldn’t do this to turn the people aginst the Chareidim, to slander citizens openly. This is a shame and disgrace to those who do it, and this is besides the essence of it being complete lies, no bears and no forest(?). But there is to this incitement a true cause, since we befriended(?) them and lived(?) with them with love, and joined together with them, the opposite happened, that they turned around and hated us more.

I will tell what I saw in Eretz Yisroel about  70 years ago in kiruv. in the spring of 5706 (1946), I was involved in the shlichus of the Griz zt”l to the secular kibbutzim of Hashomer Hatzair and Mapai. When I entered, immediately they approached me and asked what I needed, and received me with cheery faces, and treated me with derech eretz, even though they saw I am adorned with peyos and a beard.  They honored me a lot and gave me drink and fruits to eat, despite seeing that I am a Charedi belonging(?) to Charedim. And I ask, are they not the low end(?) or Tzionim as is well known, that everything that has a smell of religion they draw away from, and they rage with full strength against Judaism and Yiddishkeit, and have a shitah of fighting with religiousness; but they still treated us at that time with derech eretz and menschlikeit.  And never even dared to ignite fire and inflame stam hatred empty and meaningless, with the frequent pressure from their papers, like we see today, and this speaks volumes.  In truth this is the secret of the matter, that when we want to draw close to them, Hashem makes them move away from us and hate us.

Already now in the beginning of creating the Tzioni, when they were beginning to pick up(?) a head, Rav Chaim Brisker zt”l wrote strongly ??? against them. And I heard from my master the Griz that he said, in his time they wrote agains them, and publicized this information, but the people didn’t understand wny he came out so strongly. But already(?) they all saw the bad that Zionism brought to Am Yisroel, and came out against the Zionists.  Agudah in Poland and Yerushalaim were also very zealous in this, and fought strongly against them, already seeing the evil it was bringing to us.

So too all the years that we fought against the Tzioni, when everyone saw and recognized their bad in every place, until they started to speak(?) about the medinah to Am Yisroel, from then on they slowly began to mix with them, from then on going down and down, and slowly the deep-rooted hand conflict towards them faded away, and in it’s place, to fight alongside them in all matters(??), beginning partnerships with them. the Griz zt”l gave a mashal to enlighten the matter, comparing it to a train that had its locomotive standing(??) in the wrong direction, west instead of east, so too to stand with the Tzioni, we are turning around and partnering(?) with them in effect(??).

 

What can we say about a situation like today, that a generation grew up that already isn’t concerned(?) about him at all, and don’t feel shocked at all on the situation that befell yiddishkeit, not at all protesting and not demonstrating because all feelings are blocked up towards the pritzus( in this context lawlessness?) of the generation.  Then in the years 5708-5715 (1947/8-1954/5) by each breaching Yerushalaim stormed(?) and was horrified.  Also in the time that they were establishing mixed swimming pools in ramat gan, I remember how the village(?) then stormed powerfully, and if like today(?) anything like this passes in silence and already they aren’t concerned.  Stores  are open on Shabbos kodesh, ??? houses of selling(?) another kind of meat(?) in many places, and there are also missionaries. The situation today is very ?? bad, few  days pass  without ceremonies(?) converting about 20 Jews to Christianity, and no one speaks out. Everything is desolate and being destroyed (?), eradicating all Judaism from the generation, and all because we drew close to them, until our sensitivity was closed to the pritzus, and therefore all that was before us is forgotten and lost, like a steep fall(?), from a high roof to a deep pit.

And look, now after we drew them close for many years, and mixed well with them, now we see the consequence, they say all Bnei HaYeshiva should go serve in the military, and the incitement was strengthened until the whole country says these things, that all be recruited to the army.

IN the year 5709, when the politicians were speaking (?) about drafting bnei yeshiva, the heads of the army explained their stance, and declared that they did not want the Charedim in the army. They would put up Shuls and make minyanim and set up Batei Midrashim to learn, and would need mikvaos, who needs them? And this was spread in all the newspapers.  But now that we have joined with them, and showed them the way(?), ???, therefore this trouble came on us, that they want to draft the all the bachurim from yeshivos, this awful decree, that from it the yeshivos will close and Bnei Yisroel will be mevatel Torah, Rachmona Litzlan.

The matter is clear, that if we hate them and separate from them, and be careful to stay far from them, the order of ??? bnei yeshivos against(?) the army,  will be withdrawn today, the order already had been withdrawn about 60 years, and no doubt it was(?) withdrawn to be still in power(?).  Why(how?) are we different from the Arabs who they don’t dare tie up to army service.  And now(?) with clear design(?) and the tal law, in the beginning of their formation, they try to arrange dialogue with the Arabs in question, that they also need to join,  at least in sheirut leumi, the arabs respond together, and reject the demand outright, and even threaten and say that if they are conscripted, another intifada would break out, and all that’s happened so far would be like a mashal to what they would bring onto them. Since the heads of the country saw their refusal, immediately they abandoned it, and the matter against us will go likewise, if we refuse their order to enlist with all force.

Let us see and understand(?), it is upon us to detest the zionists more than the arabs do, because their hatred is based on fighting over land, and our hatred is because they trample the Torah, and uproot yiddishkeit, and they are ememies against Hashem, and they wish to take our lives from us, because is not the Torah our life as we say each day “Heim Chayenu”, and without the life of Torah it isn’t life. If we reacognize and understand this, and feel that they want to kill us, we will fight them with purpose, and hate them more than the Arabs do,  and we don’t fall into notions like this, and it won’t come onto their minds to compel us to take part in their military service, and to go to us with force, to force a draft on out bachurim who fear and dread the Word of Hashem. There is matter(?) to not ?? against them(?) any force to draft, and ???, to to fight with us shoulder to shoulder, just like by us, we hate the medina openly without fear, because they are from our enemies, and we are against them, and if we cry out so immediately in the beginning they wont touch out sons for bad, and they will leave us to our lives, seeing our determination to refuse to with all  out(?) strength.

However,  today the situation is the opposite, originally we wanted nothing to do with them, now we mix with them and draw near to them, and want to benefit(?) ???, come and prosecute us with this draft, saying if we benefit we also have obligations.. But  if Am Yisroel is accustomed properly(?), and we have the correct custom(?) of “Your enemies I hate and those who rise against you I fight”, and we seize in the depths of our hearts that Zionism is a bad thing, and the medinah uproots the Torah, a “treif pig(??)” and it is worse than missionaries and worse than Communism, then this tzara wouldn’t come on us, and there wouldn’t be taking shape(?), just the opposite, they wouldn’t touch us at all or want us to join.

And now what is there for us to do, what is the obligation of every talmid and ben yeshiva? ???, the whole generation is covered in darkness, in any case our generation hasbgreat maalos, there are many students in yeshivos ketanos, who learn with mesiras nefesh, with geshmak. I once entered a yeshiva ketana and my heart was widened(?) seeing how  they were immersed in limud Torah, and they wanted only Torah and yiras Shamayim. And so too the precious studnets learning in yeshiva gedolos, who til ad delve into Torah without other considerations(?). Not so at a time(in the past?), that the parents sent their children to secular schools, today they all send their children only to Talmud Torahs and Batei Chinuch Ksherim(?) for daughters, all wanted the Torah upbringing. Klall Yisroel wants to hear the word of Torah and daas Torah, Klall Yisroel is  good, and want good(?), but ??? direct the congregation on their opinions, and ??? young hearts and divert their minds from learning Torah.

In any case it is incumbent on us to strengthen ourselves, it is obligatory for every Ben Torah and  Ben Yeshiva to strengthen himself greatly in learning Torah, and Bnei Torah must put aside all the side nonsense, and take themselves with a;lll their strength tolearn Torah, and toil in it, and to comprehend it, and all within tahor yiras shamayim. To ask good questions,  difficult Rambams, Rabbi Akiva Eigers, Rabbeinu Chaim Halevi and others, not questions without thinking, without considering them, which prevent understanding, but consider the pashat first before asking. It is written “If you will go in My ways and guard My mitzvos”, that you will delve into Torah, and delve into Yiras SHamayim(?), and in this zechus there will be salvation for the whole generation as Hashem will have mercy on us.

 

 

 

According to what we see today, if things don’t change for the better, then we will need to abandon the land and flee from there because of the gezeira of the draft of bnei yeshiva means closing the Yeshivos, and the gezeira of closing the yeshivos is harsh more than desecrating graves, more than mechalalei Shabbos, more than missionaries. And we need to make a sensation to the entire world.

The congregation needs to wake up from its apathy, and know that this strict decree is because(?) it is very important to cn tinue spreading Torah in Eretz Yisroel.

72 years ago, in teves 5701, during the second world war, we were with my father the Brisker Rav zt”l, and we were in the region of Vilna and Dvinsk. This area was not yet in danger because the main war was then between Germany, and England and France, not yet with Russia. The Vilna area was at first under Lithuania, until the Russians entered, and under them there wasn’t danger to our lives. Just the opposite was Eretz Yisroel, already in tangible danger from the German army in Egypt, heading to conquer E”Y. The situation was very bad, a period when every day there was the concern they would enter the land, and the fear was very great. Though the situation was such, my father said we had to leave and go to E”Y, and why? Because after the Russians took control of Lithuania, they wouldn’t allow Torah learning, but made us send out children to Russian non-Jewish schools. on this my father said it is forbidden to remain under their control, d=since we wouldn’t be able to learn, and we were obligated to leave quickly, not waiting. We left from there to E”Y, even though our lives were in danger there, but it wasn’t  on our religion, because we would be able to be mechanech our children in Talmud Torah, this was his decision at the time.

From this comes a great principle, we traveled to Eretz Yisroel because of yiddiskeit, and this was Divinely inspired, because this also saved us physically. In the end the war was also between Germany and Russia, and Vilna was conquered by Germans, and the holocaust was there as well, Rachmana litzlan, but we were saved because we had already left.

Today, the situation also is painful to us, in E”Y there is a real danger on religion, if there is no change for the better, we’ll find E”Y like Russia was, the same. They want to close the Yeshivos!! Because this gezeira of the draft, they will close the yeshivos! Indeed they began to advance to certain stages of enforcing the draft (?)  bachurim to report to the draft office, and obligate them to pass physicals, and the army does this acting very basely(?), like ??? [a small bit here I couldn’t translate]. Know and also spread, last Thursday (before 25 Teves) they brought(reached?) many(?) bachurim to appear in the draft office, made them take physicals, compelling them to examine only for health reasons(?), because they were only soldiers doing the examining. They asked to be checked by doctors, saying their Rav told them only to be checked by a doctor, but they answered, this is the army! You’re already in the army and in the army there aren’t Rabbonim! This worked(?) for soldiers. Like this they already entered poison n young bochurim not to listen to Rabbonim. They held them many hours, at mincha time they wouldn’t let them daven, because during examinations there is no mincha. And there was with them only female soldiers, not male. This is mamash to tear apart the Torah.



#16 Rabbi Shapiro

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 07:43 PM

I dnt want to question a gadols words
I want to understand
Am i really being told to hate another jew?
Wat abt religious zionists ... Daati leumi? Do i hate them to?
And is tht the excuse? We hate u so by definition we cnt join ur army?
Wat abt having a new nachal chareidi tht wud truly b religious with time set aside to learning?
Just Qs... Nt trying to b argumentative... Just been bugging me since these talks strtd up recently

Also, somthing i often hear people argue tht seems valid to me so id lhonestly like to hear an answer
How is it ok for the chareidim to b living off gov money (a very large percentage do... The men dont work and thy need the money) and nt giv anything bak to the country
Not even talking army... But rather even going iut to work so thy can support themselves without so much help from the gov

I tried the... "But Torah makes the world go round n thts the essence of the world...."
N dnt say the typical "but the arabs do the same"
Also i heard somone say " arent Jews supposed to b bnei melachim? How do thy allow themselves to live in such dirt and poverty" n trust me ive walked thru bnei brak... Dirt n poverty can practically describe the feel of the city right behind the kedusha n Torah tht many fail to see

 

You are not being told to hate Jews. You are being told that the Netanyahus and the Lapids do not have the Halachic status of Jews. They are among those about whom the Rambam says: האפיקורסים מישראל אינן כישראל לדבר מן הדברים. They are Apikorsim, but not just Apikorsim - they are people who are trying with this Gezeirah of theirs to hurt the Jewish nation, to get us to change our Hashkafos, to become like them. They are enemies of Hashem and an enemy of Hashem is an enemy of ours. את שונאיך ה' אשנא ... לאויבים היו לי.

 

You are being told that the Zionists want to Shmad the Jews. Rav Dovid surely has in mind the statement of his grandfather Rav Chaim ZTL - "The Zionists do not want to Shmad the Jews in order for it to be easier for them to get a State; they want to get a State in order for it to be easier for them to Shmad Jews."

 

To someone who knows the history - and the philosophy - of Zionism, this is not a novel idea, but to those who have bought in to 100 years of propaganda - and unfortunately many of our people have bought in to it to some extent or another - it may sound extreme. The fact is, though, that the primary goal of Zionism was not to create a territorial solution to problems of the Jewish people, but rather to "normalize" the Jewish people, to change them from the ממלכת כהנים וגוי קדוש to a "healthy" nation like the Italians and French and Greeks. The Zionists were assimilated Jews who absorbed the Goyishe stereotype and perception of the "Golus Jew". They perceived heroes like the Chofetz Chaim as weak, passive, shameful, and disgusting. They looked at barbaric warriors as worthy of admiration. They diagnosed the "Jewish problem" as being the result of  the Torah-lifestyle, which some of them said was the cause of the Golus, and others, the effect thereof. But they looked at Tzadikim with disdain and disgust. They figured, if we would only be more like the Goyim - no, if we would actually be Goyim -  we would be accepted into the world, and anti-semitism would disappear.

 

Many of the "founding fathers" of Zionism actually blamed Judaism itself for our problems. Ben Gurion, for example, held that "Religion was the national tragedy of the Jewish people."  The hatred they had for frum Jews puts the most virulent antisemites to shame. Herzl said that frum people not only are not Jews, they are not even of the same race as real Jews. 

 

First they tried assimilating. This was in the days of the Maskilim. But they saw that didn't work. The Goyim hated us anyway. So they decided that we cannot join the other nations, because we are not a nation ourselves. We are a ghost people, abnormal, homeless, weak, bent over and much too spiritual and cerebral. The Jewish nation must be reborn. The Jew must stop being a Jew and start being a Goy - a Goy not of the Italian persuasion, or French persuasion, but a Goy of the Hebrew persuasion.

 

So they set out to create a new, secular definition of Jewishness. They set out to change us from Yaakov to Esav. From a nation of ויתן לך ה' to a nation of על חרבך תחיה. This transformation was much more important to them than a State. 

 

The methods they employed to do this were nothing new. They used the same methods of re-creating a nation, of brainwashing its people, as other Nationalist peoples. They re-wrote history; created national myths and invented new heroes for the people; used whatever methods they could - force and coercion and even cold blooded murder against frum people (such as the assassination of Yaakov DeHaan) to ensure that their new Nation, which was nothing like the Jewish people, would be born, and that our nation would cease to exist. 

 

Don't let anyone ever tell you that the reason the Zionists hate Jews is because we don't go to their army or because of anything that has to do with us at all. That's like saying the reason that there is antisemitism in Germany today is because of the Jews that refuse to buy German products, or the Jews that did not want to take reparations money.

 

The Zionists hated the Jews way before there was an army, in fact, way before there was Zionism - they chose to inherit the frumophiobic hatred of the Yid from the maskilim, and in fact, the hatred for Jewishness and Judaism was the main reason for Zionism - much more than antisemitism. There were  Zionists that actually declared clearly that Zionism is not a response to antisemitism - and even if anti-semistism would disappear off the face of the earth, zZionism would still be their goal. Antisemitism, they held, was a response to Judaism, and Jewishness, and it is Jewishness that has to be eradicated, rehabilitated, "normalized" in order to make the Jews into an accepted nation in the Family of Nations.

 

To the Zionists, the "Yid" - and Judaism itself - were the unfortunate damaged products of our years unfortunate damaged existence without a Medinah, without a language, without pride and dignity, without the normalcy that the Italians and Bulgarians enjoy. To other Zionists, it was the opposite - the Golus, the abnormality of the Jews, the degradation and persecutions and despicable state of the Jewish people was caused by our religion, which messed us up beyond recognition.

 

Judaism destroyed the Jewish people. Jewishness was a sickness. So, then...who is normal?

 

The warrior, the strongman, the bronzed, proud, barbarian with sword in his hand. Esav is normal and healthy. Yaakov is abnormal, disgusting, and weak.

 

So they - and this, too, they inherited from the Maskilim - reconstructed Jewish history. The Jews - no, not Jews; "Hebrews," for the Zionists derisively did not want to call themselves Jews, as the Berdycweski famously stated, "We can either choose to be the last of the Jews or the first of a new Nation" - the Hebrews were once upon a time a barbaric, strong, nationalistic people in Biblical times; Dovid HaMelech was Conan the Barbarian and Shlomo, Tarzan of the Apes. We conquered, fought, and lived like "normal" nations such as the Cannani, Hitti, Emori, Prizi and Yevusi. And then after the Churban it all unraveled. Jewish history was put on hold. The Jewish people were ruined. Golus happened. A new version of religion was created by the rabbis, either to hold us out in Golus temporarily, until we get back our Medinah, or because of the terrible damage done to us by not having our own Medinah. This religion, this new creation of the rabbis which was a weak way of preserving the Jews while they lacked real Nationhood, is the rabbinic Judaism of the Talmud and rabbinical literature. 

 

But none of this is real "Jewishness." The real Jewish people are like Conan and Tarzan. 

 

And Ben Gurion and Herzl, and Moshe Dayan and Bibi Netanyahu.

 

NOT the Chofetz Chaim; not Rava and Abaye, not the Ramban and the Rashba - they are damaged, despicable fake versions of a real Jew.

 

In fact, Moshe Dayan, in his "essays" on Tanach (I am not kidding) writes that Ben Gurion is the Moshe Rabbeinu of our generation. After all, wasn't the accomplishment of Moshe Rabbeinu that he took the Jews out of their miserable Golus-existence and brought them into the Land of Israel? Who else but the great Ben Gurion can claim the mantle of Moshe Rabbeinu nowadays?

 

But Ben Gurion may actually disagree with that assessment. He said, in one of his Shiurim on Tanach (I am not kidding here either), that the Jews (Hebrews) occupied Palestine way before Moshe even brought them there, In fact, Avraham went to Palestine because he was attracted to the Jewish (Hebrew) people who lived there before him. Eventually, some Jews ended up in Egypt, stayed there for about 2 generations (not 200 years) and then left Egypt, to wander in the desert and later join their people who were already in the Land of Israel. That is why they didn't kill the residents of Shechem - because they were Jews, like them!

 

(to be continued)



#17 Aurbach

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 07:04 AM

Rav Shapiro,

 

I am sure the information in your post is shocking to many people. I grew up in a modern, Zionist home and school but am an alumnus of the old "frumteens" site. Although I never knew much of the facts you've posted, I am not shocked. How many others out there who have not been enlightened probably are shocked? Would it be possible for the Rav to deal with this topic more at length? I am sure that most people would gain a tremendous amount. The real story of Zionism is suppressed in the Jewish world (especially in the modern orthodox world) to such an extent it borders on brainwashing. As you said, "One hundred years of propaganda." I would be very interested in hearing the real true story of Zionism in a more complete format. I am sure there are many out there who would be very interested as well.



#18 FS613

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 09:05 AM

L'Chvod Rabbi Shapiro, Shlita:

 

Is the "Moshe Dayan, in his 'essays' on Tanach" book which you are referring to, called "Living with the Bible" ?

 

Also, are Ben-Gurion's Shiurim on Tanach in writing?

 

It would be great to be able to show "Religious" Zionists, written proof of how these 2 men corrupted Jewish history.

 

Thank you.

 

 



#19 Rabbi Shapiro

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 03:50 PM

L'Chvod Rabbi Shapiro, Shlita:

 

Is the "Moshe Dayan, in his 'essays' on Tanach" book which you are referring to, called "Living with the Bible" ?

 

Also, are Ben-Gurion's Shiurim on Tanach in writing?

 

It would be great to be able to show "Religious" Zionists, written proof of how these 2 men corrupted Jewish history.

 

Thank you.

Dayan - Yes.

 

BG - Not that I know of but they are quoted.

 

But don't rush to show this to your friends yet. It is a drop in the bucket. There's lots more.



#20 Rabbi Shapiro

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 04:09 PM


Rav Shapiro,

 

I am sure the information in your post is shocking to many people. I grew up in a modern, Zionist home and school but am an alumnus of the old "frumteens" site. Although I never knew much of the facts you've posted, I am not shocked. How many others out there who have not been enlightened probably are shocked? Would it be possible for the Rav to deal with this topic more at length? I am sure that most people would gain a tremendous amount. The real story of Zionism is suppressed in the Jewish world (especially in the modern orthodox world) to such an extent it borders on brainwashing. As you said, "One hundred years of propaganda." I would be very interested in hearing the real true story of Zionism in a more complete format. I am sure there are many out there who would be very interested as well.

Yes, I think I am going to do that. It's important that people should know what Zionism and Zionists are. Even those among us who are anti-, still don't know the extent and scope of it. An example of why it is so important to know is because when someone like Rav Dovid comes out with something like the above, people should understand it.

 

But before I do that, I want to, at least in short, answer the inquiry above regarding Bnei Melachim and the army.

 

The reasons we do not serve in the army in Israel are outlined in my previous post. There are two sets of reasons - we can call them the ויצא reasons and the וילך reasons. The ויצא are reasons we will not leave the Bais HaMedrash. We have heard much about that, and it is all true - Torah is the most important thing in the world And each and every additional word of Torah is the most important thing in the world.

 

But those are not the only reasons. The וילך reasons are reasons that the army itself is not somewhere we will go. The Zionists hate us. They always have and so long as they buy into Zionist Hashkafa, they always will. Their entire worldview is founded on frumophibia. To Zionism, frum Jews - "Maushels" as Herzl used to call them, which is approximately the German equivalent of "Kike" -  we are odious and repugnant. What they admire, we deride, and what they deride, we admire. Shortly, the Chiloni schools will be teaching in Israel that Lag BaOmer is a celebration of the victory (yes, victory) of the hero Bar Kochba, and that the torches are reminiscent of the torches Bar Kochba used to signal his victory throughout the land. They will teach that Rabi Akiva's talmidim died as martyrs in the heroic Bar Kochba rebellion against the Romans, for the sake of national independence, to get us back our Medinah. (see my article on this here.)

 

We know they made this up out of thin air. On purpose, in order to inculcate their youth the idea that Jews value militant nationalism, and that Bar Kochba's activities were always celebrated as a national holiday. This is but one example of the brainwashing that they use to indoctrinate the Israeli youth with the idea that Zionism is the real Judaism. And it's not as if they have any historical reason to say such nonsense - they literally made it up on purpose in order to brainwash their youth. " "According to Zionist ideology" it says below - it should really be "according to Zionist mythology." 

 

They replaced Jewish history with mythology. 

 

From Wikipedia (Lag Baomer):

 


...In modern Israel, the holiday has evolved to include commemoration of the Bar Kokhba revolt against the Roman Empire.

 

...According to Zionist ideology (see section below), the bonfires are said to represent the signal fires that the Bar Kokhba rebels lit on the mountaintops to relay messages,[13][dead link] or are in remembrance of the Bar Kochba revolt against the Romans, who had forbidden the kindling of fires that signalled the start of Jewish holidays.[14]

 

...In modern Israel, especially with the expension of the Zionist movement, Lag BaOmer came to include the commemoration of the Bar Kokhba revolt against the Roman Empire (132–136 CE).

According to work published by Yael Zerubavel from Rutgers University, a number of Lag BaOmer traditions were modified by the broadly defined "Zionist movement" so to ecourage young children to sing and dance around bon-fires while celebrating Bar-Kohba's revolt. The plague that decimated Rabbi Akiva's 24,000 disciples was explained as a veiled reference to the revolt; the 33rd day when the plague ended was explained as the day of Bar Kokhba's victory. By the late 1940s, textbooks for schoolchildren painted Bar Kokhba as the hero while Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai and Rabbi Akiva stood on the sidelines, cheering him onwhich textbooks? some/all? . This interpretation lent itself to singing and dancing around bonfires by night to celebrate Bar Kokhba's victory, and playing with bows and arrows by day to remember the actions of Bar Kokhba's rebel forces.[5]

In modern Israeli secular culture, Lag BaOmer is "a symbol for the fighting Jewish spirit". The Palmach division of the Haganah was established on Lag BaOmer 1941, and the government order creating the Israel Defense Forces was issued on Lag BaOmer 1948.[19] Beginning in 2004, the Israeli government designated Lag BaOmer as the day for saluting the IDF reserves.[20]

 

Lag Baomer for saluting the IDF reserves. Of course! Lag Baomer is a celebration of the military of Bar Kochba, and we would love our children to take after that hero's ways!

 

Bar Kochba was a false leader. We call him Bar Koziva - the faker. And he didn't win - he lost, and his loss caused a bloodbath of terrible magnitude in the Jewish nation. We are admonished by Chazal not to follow in his footsteps, never to rebel the way he did. But to the Zionists, he is a hero.

 

Like the murderers of Masada. The group of Sikarii murderers, butchered 700 Jews in Ein Gedi to rob them of supplies. (See my post of 2/7/12 here.) These terrorists are, to the Zionists, heroes. Masada, the site of a mass suicide of mass murderers, is another shrine of the IDF.

 

These are but small examples. Zionism is, simply and completely, an identity theft perpetrated against the Jewish people and the Jewish religion. A taking of Judaism and making it into pagan mythological idolatry, then claiming that it is the authentic Judaism and that our version is a Golus-induced distortion.

 

The army is the main tool that Zionists use to inculcate the fabricated and anti-Torah ideology of Zionism into the Israeli youth. Yes, it is true that a terrible amount of observant Jews end up losing their frumkeit there, but even if one does not, he is still inculcated with the Avodah Zorah of כחי ועוצם ידי - of false values, to look at Tameh as Tahor and at Tahor as Tameh.

 

The army is designed on purpose with this in mind. It is what the Zionists call their "melting pot" where young Jews are all "straightened out" and trained to value the weapons of Esav, and to admire what Hashem told us is wrong.

 

The Zionists do not need Chareidim in their army. They are doing this to change us into them. That is what we call in Torah parlance a Shas Hashmad.

 

 

 

 

As far as Rav Dovid's statement about hating them, he did not mean that is the reason we don't go to the army. He meant that had we expressed the proper revulsion for what these people stand for, had we treated them as our enemies - which they are - this Gezeirah of Shmad would not have happened. Like the Umos HaOlam, the more we show closeness to the Zionists the more they persecute us. The more we keep our distance, the less they persecute us. That is what he was saying.

 

Re: Bnei Melachim - that's not what it means. There are many explanations of this means, such as the Jews affect the entire world like a king does his kingdom, or that people who harass Klall Yisroel are Mored BeMalchus, and other explanations. But the explanations do not include that we have to wear fancy clothes or live in a palace. Like, for example, the Gemora says that Bnei melachim wake up every morning at 10:00 AM, after everyone else in the world. Does that mean Jews have to sleep late? And we don't we are not "Bnei Melachim"? No. The Bnei Melachim description is referring to specific things, and physical accommodations is not one of them. We value Ruchniyus, and in that sense we are Bnei Melachim. As Chazal say:  כַּךְ הִיא דַּרְכָּהּ שֶׁל תּוֹרָה, פַּת בַּמֶּלַח תֹּאכֵל וּמַיִם בַּמְּשׂוּרָה תִּשְׁתֶּה וְעַל הָאָרֶץ תִּישָׁן וְחַיֵּי צַעַר תִּחְיֶה וּבַתּוֹרָה אַתָּה עָמֵל אִם אַתָּה עֹשֶׂה כֵּן אַשְׁרֶיךָ וְטוֹב לָךְ אַשְׁרֶיךָ בָּעוֹלָם הַזֶּה וְטוֹב לָךְ לָעוֹלָם הַבָּא: 

 

That does nor necessarily mean such a lifestyle is preferable if one has a choice (there is a Machlokes about that), but certainly such a lifestyle is not a contradiction to our status as royalty to Hashem.