17 replies to this topic

[Nesanelf99]

I understand this topic may be a bit controversial but I wanted to hear you think. I have many frum Jewish friends and not frum Jews and non Jewish friends alike. Some of them are exceptional in behavior in character, some are okay, and some are downright disgusting and horrible. (The latter I'm not  really friends with...) I know quite a few non Jews who are so nice and amazing. One volunteers at a soup kitchen and nursing homes. One is a counselor at a camp for the mentally disabled. One sixteen year old girl suffers from Cystic Fibrosis (and according to her doctor has approx 5 years to live) and started an organization that receives cards from all over the world and delivers them to hospitalized children as well as obtaining autographs from their favorite stars for them. But many of them are kind and sweet and have incredible middos (dare I say kinder than many of my classmates in my old yeshiva). Anyway enough of my rambling but my point is that non Jews can be just as kind and have an amazing soul as Jews can. Of course in general Jews seem to be of better character but when talking about the individual in question... Some of these people are atheists and some are Christians. One of my friends is even a Buddhist. Many non Jews of course are vile and evil but my question is: Can non believers be rewarded in Gan Eden? The story of Dama Ben Nesina seems to say yes but I'm wondering if that still applies today? I've heard that non Jews get rewarded in Olam Hazeh while Jews get rewarded in Olam Haba. I kind of hope that's not true but I wanted to hear what you think. Thanks a lot!

[Rabbi Shapiro]

If someone does not believe in Olam Habah - the Torah's Olam Habah - he cannot get any. That applies to Jews as well as non-Jews.

 

There is an "Olam Habah" for non-Jews who believe in the truth of the Torah and fulfill the 7 Mitzvos because they are Torah law. But idol-worshipers do not get Olam Habah for fulfilling the "commands" of their idols, even if those commands coincide with a Mitzvah; and an atheist does not get Olam Habah for doing something that he denies brings him Olam Habah.

[Nesanelf99]

May I ask why? Aren't mitzvos better to be perfectly altruistic? If someone don't believe in the reward then why should that mean the act is insignificant? I understand your point about fulfilling "commands" of idols but acts like these are rarely done purely because of religious reasons. If the Torah did not prohibit murder then would everyone do it? I guess that's not such a good comparison but I don't understand why an act should be discredited just because they are wrong in their faith. Of course faith and religion is extremely important but isn't half of Judaism ben adam l' chaveiro? 

[Rabbi Shapiro]

The act isn't discredited - it's just not a Mitzvah.

 

There are a few ways to understand this, all correct: First:

 

The way Olam Habah works is, it is a connection to Hashem. Because you are fulfilling His will, therefore, you become connected to Him, and therefore, you are able to "share" (or: "benefit from") His perfection. That is the definition of Olam Habah. Olam Habah is not arbitrary reward and punishment - it works because the Mitzvah attaches itself to a part of a person's Neshama, and since a Mitzvah is the Ratzon Hashem, it is in a sense "part" of Hashem (i.e. "connected" to Hashem).

 

So one of the elements of the Mitzvah is Emunah. Taking an Esrog, for example, without Emunah is like taking an Esrog without a Pitim. That's not a fulfillment o the Mitzvah. So too with all Mitzvos. Without Emunah the Mitzvah is not a Mitzvah.

 

Second: A person gets what he asks for. If someone is an atheist, he is doing the Mitzvah for some motive, but it is not in order to get a Mitzvah and go to Olam Habah. Whatever benefit he thinks he is getting from doing this action - Kovod, or a good feeling, or the fulfillment of his part in a social contract - that is his reward. That was his motive, that is what he asked for, that is what he expected, that is what he wanted - that is what he gets. The justice of Midah Kneged Midah says that you cannot get what you push away or deny. That is because we are only the sum total of our choices. If we choose to deny Olam Habah, then we get what we believe in - which is no Olam Habah.

 

Another thing: A Mitzvah, even Bain Adam L'Chaveiro, that is done by a Maamin is a different act than that which is done by a Kofer. A Maamin does a Mitzvah as an act of subservience to the Creator. he recognizes that there is an authority in the world and He is serving that authority. He also recognizes the value of the Mitzvah as an intrinsically good thing to do (see this article please). He is doing something because it is good, right, and intrinsically what should be done. The atheist can not believe in any of that. He can choose to be a moral person, but to him morals are self-serving - he is moral because he wants to be, not because he should be. There is no should without Hashem's revelation that something should be done. Otherwise, it is merely a personal preference. And so, although an atheist can be a very very moral person, his morals can be nothing more than the expression of his own arbitrary preference - he cannot say that there is any obligation to be moral. And if someone is moral only because he likes to be, that is a totally different type of morals than if a person is moral because he knows he should be.

[JewishAttorney]

That's an interesting discussion. I've always been proud of how Judaism is not one of the religions that says that if you don't believe X, you are going to Hell (whatever that means - punishment after death).

Now I'm confused. There are not many non-Jews who even know what it means to be a Ben Noah as they never heard the term to begin with and may, as Christians or Muslims or agnostics, followers of Far Eastern religions atheists and etc do good deeds just because. In fact, I think there are few organizations even now in out times who teach about being a Ben Noah.

Question: Do all those billions of people therefore going to our version of "Hell"? Are there different levels of this non olam habah existence? Thanks

[Rabbi Shapiro]

That's an interesting discussion. I've always been proud of how Judaism is not one of the religions that says that if you don't believe X, you are going to Hell (whatever that means - punishment after death).

Now I'm confused. There are not many non-Jews who even know what it means to be a Ben Noah as they never heard the term to begin with and may, as Christians or Muslims or agnostics, followers of Far Eastern religions atheists and etc do good deeds just because. In fact, I think there are few organizations even now in out times who teach about being a Ben Noah.

Question: Do all those billions of people therefore going to our version of "Hell"? Are there different levels of this non olam habah existence? Thanks

See my post of 10/9/11 here.

[JewishAttorney]

Got it, thanks!

[taon]

I remember hearing that the amount a nonjew has to believ ein order to merit some sort of afterlife reward is dependant on their circumstances. I probably misunderstood, as it doesnt make sense for Olam Habah to work that way.

[Nesanelf99]

But shouldn't someone who follows in the way of G-d and emulates Torah principles automatically become closer to HaShem? Even if he doesn't necessarily believe in HaShem he is doing acts that HaShem "likes" or praises. Whether or not it is done specifically in the name of HaShem or Olam Haba isn't that irrelevant? Isn't gaining Olam Haba a matter of elevating one's soul through acts of kindness and character? If G-d would punish people who don't believe in him (but are still good people) and reward people who do believe in him (but are not necessarily perfect or exceptional in character) then isn't he a bit petty? If a major goal (if not all) of Judaism is refining character then someone who excels at this wouldn't he be loved by HaShem (though admittedly perhaps not to the extent of a Jew)?

[Nesanelf99]

Continuation from last post: And what about the matter of נהמא דכסופא? If someone works so hard on his character and raises it to a higher spiritual level (unintentionally) then why isn't he rewarded? If the whole point of נהמא דכסופא is to reward someone for his actions then its not really about the specific belief in Olam Haba or HaShem? According to Mesilas Yeshurim HaShem created the world only to give us pleasure but working for it would only increase the pleasure and make it more satisfying. So if someone works on all this then why does it revert to him having to believe in G-d and Olam Haba as well to gain this pleasure? Thanks.

[Rabbi Shapiro]

But shouldn't someone who follows in the way of G-d and emulates Torah principles automatically become closer to HaShem? Even if he doesn't necessarily believe in HaShem he is doing acts that HaShem "likes" or praises. Whether or not it is done specifically in the name of HaShem or Olam Haba isn't that irrelevant? Isn't gaining Olam Haba a matter of elevating one's soul through acts of kindness and character? If G-d would punish people who don't believe in him (but are still good people) and reward people who do believe in him (but are not necessarily perfect or exceptional in character) then isn't he a bit petty? If a major goal (if not all) of Judaism is refining character then someone who excels at this wouldn't he be loved by HaShem (though admittedly perhaps not to the extent of a Jew)?

 

Continuation from last post: And what about the matter of נהמא דכסופא? If someone works so hard on his character and raises it to a higher spiritual level (unintentionally) then why isn't he rewarded? If the whole point of נהמא דכסופא is to reward someone for his actions then its not really about the specific belief in Olam Haba or HaShem? According to Mesilas Yeshurim HaShem created the world only to give us pleasure but working for it would only increase the pleasure and make it more satisfying. So if someone works on all this then why does it revert to him having to believe in G-d and Olam Haba as well to gain this pleasure? Thanks.

 

 

When an atheist does a good deed, he is not emulating Hashem. Because without Hashem's command, there is no objective reason that one should do a good deed. Certainly one can opt to do a good deed and be a good person, but he can only do so because he decided that it is something he wants to do. The decision not to kill someone on the part of an atheist has the same driving motivation as the decision to eat ice-cream for dessert: The voluntary choosing one option in life over another. He is not doing it because it is intrinsically right - there is no such thing as intrinsically right without Hashem. There are only things like "social contracts" or "natural instincts" or the fear of anarchy, or the like, but there is no way to say that any act should be done or not done in and of itself. When an atheist is moral, it is a personal choice - not the fulfillment of the requirements of being good. There can be no such requirements to an atheist, for whom the world is purposeless and life is just the result of biological accident.  See here.

 

Therefore, when an atheist does a good deed, he is not developing his character in the way that the Torah requires. The Torah requires us to understand that good should be done; and bad should not. That good is good and bad is bad. That they are not personal choices; they are intrinsically binding.

 

Without that attitude, which is not available to an atheist, being moral is merely a personal choice, and is chosen on the same basis as the choice of what dessert to eat - i.e. personal preference. But doing what's right is not really a matter of personal preference. When an atheist makes a personal preference choice not to kill, he is doing so only because he has some personal benefit, for him, for society, in the short term or the long. It may be it makes him feel good, or it may be he thinks that if he doesn't kill people then people won't kill him. But try as he might he will not be able to explain his morality as the result of anything except the fact that  it fulfills HIS will. Whether he likes it or not, he is merely doing what serves his own purposes.

 

And that's not character development. Of course, it's better than being a murderer, but it's not the character development that the Torah is talking about.

 

Second: Honesty - intellectual honesty included - is also part of character development. And someone who denies the clear evidence of a Creator in nature is dishonest. And that leads to a lack of gratitude toward Hashem Who gave this atheist life and breath every moment of the day. What would you say about a "moral" person who just happens not to have a drop of Hakaras HaTov to He Who gives him everything? Such a person can hardly be considered as having a "developed character." This is also part of the first answer I gave - that atheists are moral when they choose to be; but when that morality demands the honesty of admitting the existence of Hashem, and expressing everlasting gratitude toward Him their "character traits" run dry.

 

Third: It does not say anywhere that "character development" in the Bain Adam L'Chaveiro sense is the "main goal of Yiddishkeit." That is simply not so. It is an integral part, but so is Emunah. And it's a package deal. It's like if a person has a liver but no heart - he will not live. So too if a person is a nice guy but has no Emunah, he will not live in the next world. Just as Mitzvos Bain Adam LaMakom have conditions, so too do Mitzvos Bain Adma LeChaveiro, and doing a Mitzvah without Emunah is like taking an Esrog without a Pitim. You may as well ask what if a person does a good act that the Torah says is not a Mitzvah altogether? Would you expect the person to get reward for it? Of course not. And so, any "nice act" without Emunah may be a nice act, but it is not a Mitzvah. It is the same as a person did something that he thinks is a good deed but included in the 613 Mitzvos.

[shaya]

look in rashi in beginning of perek chelek regarding not believing in techiyes hameisim min hatorah.

[Morgenstern]

I have a question for Rabbi Shapiro. I was taught that goyim can believe in kafirah and minut and not be punished for it. Now the Rabbi is telling me they are punished for it. 

I still have to believe goyim can be atheists. Can Rabbi Shapiro reconciliation this for me?

[Rabbi Shapiro]

One of the 7 Mitzvos are Avodah Zorah. Atheism is the worst form of Avodah Zorah. What Goyim are allowed to believe, according to a disputed opinion, is shituf, meaning thay believe in Hashem but that c"v He shares control with some other entity. That's prohibited for Jews to believe (and it's definitely sheker) but it's a disagreement as to whether non-Jews can.

[Morgenstern]

One of the 7 Mitzvos are Avodah Zorah. Atheism is the worst form of Avodah Zorah. What Goyim are allowed to believe, according to a disputed opinion, is shituf, meaning thay believe in Hashem but that c"v He shares control with some other entity. That's prohibited for Jews to believe (and it's definitely sheker) but it's a disagreement as to whether non-Jews can.

I understand. Thank you Rabbi Shapiro.

[JewishAttorney]

Seems to me like monotheism is the most basic and logical belief about the truth about how the World is run.

Why would there even be an opinion that they are allowed to believe in this shared control when there is no shared control - it's a non existent fallacy?

[Rabbi Shapiro]

Believing the world is square is also not true, but it's not assur, either for Jew or gentile.

 

Believing Tzitzis is not a Mitzvah is also not true, but it's not assur for a Goy to believe it.

 

Just because Hashem decided that for whatever reason He is not going to make some absurd belief an Aveirah does not mean that belief is any less absurd.

[JewishAttorney]

Got it, thanks Rabbi Shapiro!