9 replies to this topic

[mamash]

I recently heard about a rebbitzen that does some kind of pouring lead to remove ayin haras. My understanding is that the method she uses is brought down in seforim. Is there anything to is?

[Rabbi Shapiro]

There is such a thing. But I have no idea if any given woman knows how to do it. My advice: Stay away from such people. Even if she knows what she is doing, if you stay home and learn another Tosfos you will accomplish much more for your Guf and Neshama alike. In this hyperstressful and time consuming world that we live in we can barely steal a few moments to learn some Torah and Daven properly. Who has time for melted lead?

[mamash]

Assuming we knew that a particular person knew how to do it, Why wouldn't it be a form of hishtadlus to seek out this person? If someone is sick we tell them to go to a doctor, why is this any different?

[Rabbi Shapiro]

Not everything that is permitted because of Hashtadlus is worth doing instead of learning that Tosfos. Exercise is an important form of Hashtadlus for taking care of your health, but if a person pressed for time has a choice between spending extra time adding hip abductions to his regimen or making a phone call to say hello to his wife, I would advise him to do the latter.

The Poskim rule that these types of Segulos are permitted - see Bais Yosef 306 (and for the lead in particular see Tzemach Tzedek #38). But that doesn't mean they are important to do. it doesn't even mean they really work - or if so, when. The heter here is that we are allowed to do these things even if we do not know that they work. So I don't see that it's worth giving up learning a Tosfos for doing this.

There is Hishtadlus that is required - like going to a doctor - and there is Hashtadlus that is not required. The Hishtadlus that is not required, even if permitted, is not always worth spending your time on if you have better things to do.

Second, even if someone wants to do Hashtadlus, it would make no sense for him to do a weaker Histadlus instead of a stronger one. If someone wants to make a living, he would not take a lesser paying job if he could take a better paying one. And so, whatever value these lead-melting actions have, Tefilah has more.

In the sense that these Segulos are Hashtadlus, so is Tefilah.
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דרך ה' - חלק ד פרק ה - בתפלה

א. ענין התפילה הוא, כי הנה מן הסדרים שסידרה החכמה העליונה הוא, שלהיות הנבראים מקבלים שפע ממנו ית', צריך שיתעוררו הם אליו ויתקרבו לו ויבקשו פניו, וכפי התעוררותם לו כן ימשך אליהם שפע, ואם לא יתעוררו לא ימשך להם. והנה האדון ב"ה חפץ ורוצה שתרבה טובת ברואיו בכל זמניהם, והכין להם עבודה זו דבר יום ביומו, שעל ידה ימשך להם שפע

ההצלחה והברכה כפי מה שהם צריכים לפי מצבם זה בזה העולם:

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It is the Derech HaTevah - in the same unseen way that Segulos "do" things - that prayer brings Shefa. And it is a much more robust Hashtadlus than pouring lead.

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So it is permitted to go to these women, but if a person can improve his Davening and instead of that he tries these Segulah people to fulfill his Hishtadlus, he is not serving his own interests. It is like someone who comes late to work, goofs around a whole day, takes extra-long lunches and leaves early, and then when he finds that he is turned down for a bonus at the end of the year, he decides he is going to change his behavior and from now on he will make sure to use a firmer handshake on his clients.

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Firm handshakes are Hishtadlus. But there are priorities.

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And again, that's if you know that a given woman is for real. That is very very hard to know. And there is no Chezkas Kashrus here. You should assume they are fake (or worse) until you know they are real.

[mamash]

Would going around getting brachos from tzadikim be any different?

[Rabbi Shapiro]

Yes. Much different. As opposed to this woman-melting-lead Ayin Horah Segulah, going to Godol for a Bracha is prescribed in the Gemora, which learns it from a Posuk in the Torah:

תלמוד בבלי מסכת בבא בתרא דף קטז/א

דרש ר' פנחס בר חמא כל שיש לו חולה בתוך ביתו ילך אצל חכם ויבקש עליו רחמים שנא' חמת מלך מלאכי מות ואיש חכם יכפר

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[miamigirl]

I know of a woman who was advised to go to a lead-pouring lady. In her case, she is exempt from Talmud Torah, so if she was already davening and seeking medical help, wouldn't the lead just be another benefit? As to if the lead lady is authentic, some of them have haskamos from Rabbanim.

[Rabbi Shapiro]

I know of a woman who was advised to go to a lead-pouring lady. In her case, she is exempt from Talmud Torah, so if she was already davening and seeking medical help, wouldn't the lead just be another benefit? As to if the lead lady is authentic, some of them have haskamos from Rabbanim.

Still, I do not encourage such things. We do not find that Gedolei Yisroel went to lead-melting women when they were ill and needed assistance. They relied on Teshuva Tefilah and Tzedaka, which removes a bad Gezeirah a lot better than such Segulos. And when given a choice, it is always better to be saved though Davening and learning than it is to be saved through Segulos, especially Segulos that involve other people doing things for us, and especially if these people are not Gedolei Yisroel.

But aside from that, you understand that this Segulah works specifically to negate an Ayin Horah and I wonder why someone would think that their problem is the result of an Ayin Horah. If you are going to tell me "it can't hurt because you never know," there are plenty of other valid Segulos brought down in Seforim to protect from various kinds of damage-causing supernatural phenomena, including Ayin Horah. Are you going to do all of them because each is "another benefit"? Why choose the lead lady over turning your Yarlmuka inside-out (which is a real Segulah used by Gedolei Yisroel to protect against an Ayin Horah - see Machzor Divrei Yoel Sukkos vol. 2 p.262), or any of the myriad Segulos that exist?

I suspect that the reason is, this one seems more real and exciting and mystical and interesting than wearing a Yarlmuka backwards. The Bnei Yisaschar writes that sometimes the Yetzer Horah convinces a person to do what appears to be a good thing, in order to distract them from what they really should be doing, or whatever nefarious reasons he may have.The way to tell whether it is the Yetzer Horah that is motivating you to do a good thing is to see whether you are equally motivated to do other such equally good things. If not, then you must question why you are so motivated to do one and not the other. It is likely that the motivation in such a case is not from the Yetzer Tov.

So what is it about the lead-melting lady that makes you want to go to her as opposed to doing tons of other things that are also "just another benefit"? If it is because it is cool and mysterious and exciting, then it is better to stay home.

But more importantly, if you want Segulos that help people who are sick, here are some, and they work even if the sickness was not caused by an Ayin Horah, and they definitely come with Haskomos:
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תלמוד בבלי מסכת יומא דף פו/א
אמר רבי חמא ברבי חנינא גדולה תשובה שמביאה רפאות לעולם

תלמוד בבלי מסכת ברכות דף ה/א
אמר רבי שמעון בן לקיש כל העוסק בתורה יסורין בדילין הימנו

ילקוט שמעוני משלי - פרק ד - המשך רמז תתקלה
א"ר מני אל תהי מצות קריאת שמע קלה בעיניך מפני שיש בה רמ"ח תיבות כנגד רמ"ח אברים שבאדם ומהם ברוך שם כבוד מלכותו לעולם ועד, אמר הקב"ה אם שמרתם שלי לקרותה כתקנה אני אשמור שלכם

You get the idea.

We should do what we are obligated to do in terms of Hishtadlus. We should get the best medical assistance available. But as regards the kinds of Hishtadlus that are not obligatory, the spiritual kinds of Hashtadlus - such as melting lead - it is much, much better to go straight to Hashem with your Tefilos and rely solely on Him. By doing so, you gain the great gift of Emunah and Daas that comes from relying solely on Hashem for your needs; you show Him that you recognize that your pain is nothing but a wake-up call from Him to do Teshuva and to become better; and you show Him - and yourself - that it is He and only He that you come to when you are in trouble.

Again - what He required you to do in terms of Hishtadlus, you should do, for that is considered serving Him as well, and putting your faith in Him while at the same time getting help from doctors is a Nisayon that He decreed we should have. But outside of that, we want to be saved by Him and only Him. We want to approach Him and only Him with our problems, to the extent that He allows.

It is enough that we have to go to doctors. He wants that. Let's show Him that the only reason we go to doctors is because He said to. Not because we think they can help us. The way we do that is by relying on Him as much as we can. And even though all physical assistance that we can get, we should get, regarding spiritual assistance, we are given a choice: Come to Him alone, be grateful to Him alone, rely on Him alone -- or on others as well. It is better to come to Him.

There is nothing that the lead lady can give us that we cannot get by going straight to Hashem. Yes, we are allowed to employ such Segulos. But that does not mean we need them.

[torah613]

Regarding the lead pouring, see here:

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Molybdomancy

So shouldn't it be ossur because of darchei emori? (And maybe the Tzemach Tzeddek was not aware of where this practice originates from, so that's why he didn't say it's ossur)

[Rabbi Shapiro]

Regarding the lead pouring, see here:

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Molybdomancy

So shouldn't it be ossur because of darchei emori? (And maybe the Tzemach Tzeddek was not aware of where this practice originates from, so that's why he didn't say it's ossur)

No. Nobody is doing any divination with this lead melting. They are removing an Ayin Horah. I have no idea how that works, but it is definitely not divination. So what those Greeks were doing is not what these ladies are doing.

Second, a random Wikipedia article does not constitute sufficient reason to assume that not only the Tzemach Tzedek, but other Gedolim who actually approved of (or at least tolerated) these lead ladies had no idea what does or what does not help for an Ayin Horah.

The Tzemach Tzedek is not saying that he does not know of any reason to forbid this practice. He is saying that he has reason to say it is valid. If in fact it is just bogus magic tricks coming from the Goyim then, even if the Tzemach Tzedek did not know that, it would be impossible for him to find any merit behind the practice, and he would have no reason to approve of it. The Tzemach Tzedek did not merely say he knows not know a reason to prohibit this. He said he has reason to conclude that it is a valid practice.