15 replies to this topic

[Menorah]

I would like Rav Shapiro's perspective on the current situation in Beit Shemesh that is in the international news.

[Rabbi Shapiro]

I'm not sure what needs an explanation. Can you please be specific?

[SilverShoes]

What is going on there?

[shifpifer1]

I think they aren't real Jews doing all of these things. It could be that they are posers dressing up as Jews in order to wreck havoc and increase anti-Semitism through propaganda.

[SmileySimcha123]

I think they aren't real Jews doing all of these things. It could be that they are posers dressing up as Jews in order to wreck havoc and increase anti-Semitism through propaganda.

Why wouldn't they be real Jews? I think they are! It's just the Chareidim trying to force views on others. Every religion has people who are a little too overly passionate about what they believe and they want everyone to know it.

[SilverShoes]

Shifpifer:

I think they aren't real Jews doing all of these things. It could be that they are posers dressing up as Jews in order to wreck havoc and increase anti-Semitism through propaganda.

I strongly doubt that of being likely.
Being that I think (? Don't really understand what is going on but stillll.........) that this hasn't occurred in a vacuum and isn't an isolated incident

[Menorah]

I'm not sure what needs an explanation. Can you please be specific?

I'd like your perspective on the events there. Specifically:

Do the protesters against the new Modern Orthodox girls school in Beit Shemesh have valid grounds for protesting?

Is their manner of protesting acceptable? Specifically, verbally protesting apparently immodestly dressed mothers by calling them names?

There was also a recent media allegation that one unidentified protester spit at a young girl. I saw nothing corraborating this claim, yet at least one of the major American frum newspapers accepted this as a fact. Do you believe it occurred, and if it did it was wrong?

There has been a media frenzy attacking frum Yidden based on the aforementioned allegations. This frenzy has even carried over to ostensibly frum media outlets. What do you make of this media reaction, and are any frum Yidden at fault for this?

Yasher Koach

[Punims]

I heard from my husband that originally this was a place for very chareidi Jews. Then the government got involved and decided to mix things up a bit by putting in another school that's "modern orthodox" or whatever it is they call it in Israel. So originally all the people that lived in that neighborhood were dressing very very frum (even covering themselves from head to toe) until this new school came. With the school came new families and these families are not dressing according to the old tradition of who used to live there. So the Chareidim as can be expected are really mad about this. They're going outside and discovering women walking down the street who are not dressed to their standards at all. This is really difficult for them. The result is what's been happening there.

[foncused]

Rabbi, what needs clarification is "What's the right way?" and "Is this what the Torah teaches us"?

With so many different opinions about this matter, it's easy to feel lost. Hearing the rhetoric of any party can make you feel like they are right, until you hear the other opinions.

I don't know exactly how it all started, and it does not really matter to me, since I don't think there is just one version... But the situation there currently is that some Charedim would want complete separation on the buses, on the sidewalks, and so on. They have signs on the street asking woman to use a different sidewalks, and the Chilonim are outraged.

Some people would tell you outright that they (Some refer to them as the Neturei Karta, but I'm not sure it's the correct labeling) are crazy, they are the Taliban, etc, etc.

Some would claim that this is not the Jewish way, and that's not what Hashem wants.

Others believe they just want attention and they are not earnest in their activities, while others believe they are truly acting LeShem Shamaim.

I'm sure there are many out there who are, just like me, foncused...

I know the Gemara emphasizes the importance of living in peace with the Goyim, and one of the questions here is if we, Charedi people, need to treat the Chilonim as Goyim, or is it right to enforce upon them our values.


The issue of women in Judaism is not new. I'm sure you are aware of the differences between the so many circles within Judaism itself (Carlabach, etc). So what's the right way?

[danceInTheRain]

Chareidim who are trying to force views on others?????????????????
So the Chareidim as can be expected are really mad about this?????????????????????????????
can you all stop saying chariedim??????????? it just goes to show that you all are not sure about whats going on.( and that you dont have the slightest clue of what charedim are.)
use you brain and think: is it normal to spit at people who dont dress modestly??? is that what the torah wants??? is this gonna help bring these people closer??????
no!!! no!!!! no!!!!
what these people are doing is wrong. and ALL the "chareidi" rabbis will say so too. and therefore they might look chareidi. but they dont act it. period.
so lets face the facts it is not THE CHARIEDIM who are going mad. it is a few hot heads that have lost there mind.
and by the way to all of you who are uninformed- those people in that neiborhood are called sikarikim and they follow rabbis that are not accepted by the typical chareidi world. and the ones that were doing the spitting are hot heads even in there eyes.
so stop beleiving everything the stupid media feads you and start thinking.
now to menorahs question-Is their manner of protesting acceptable? Specifically, verbally protesting apparently immodestly dressed mothers by calling them names?
well, what do YOU think? do you think this way of protest will bring any results??
there, you have your answer.
there is still a chiyuv of tochacha- rebuking a jew who is doing something wrong. but this mitzva must be done in the way that will bring results. and definetely not in a way that will bring to chilul hashem.
whooo. im not used to being so harsh. so im sorry but i will still submit this.
oh and by the way. i doubt these poeple are just dressing up. i think they are as real as can get.....

[shaya]

why should be get worked up about the action of a few? its not rabanim, morah derech, doing it.

we shouldn't get worked up whenever the media tries to work us up, every normal human being knows whats right and whats wrong, why get involved in our minds about some ill actions of a few.

[much2learn]

I agree with what Dancing said - these people aren't true chareidim... they're kano'im. People on the extreme who haven't found a more productive means of tochacha.

If what Punims said is true about the families moving into "their territory", then I'm sure there's still another, less violent, way to go about finding a solution.

[living2learn]

much2learn -

That is not the definition I think of when I hear of a kano'i. A true kano'i is zealous for the sake of Hashem and His Torah. Pinchas was considered a kano'i, when he killed Cuzbi and Zimri - but he wasn't "on the extreme and hadn't found a productive means of tochacha." A true kano'i is a very specific type of person, one who is not easily found or identified, and partly because of this - zealousness for one's own ideals and ideas is not kano'us; zealousness for the Ribono Shel Olam is. (Although I think I can hear what you're saying - you're talking about a certain personality and way of being; which I've definitely encountered, both in positive and negative ways.)

[taon]

As far as I can tell, it's a small group of people responding in an incorrect way to a possible lack of tznius. It's media trying to make it a whole Charedim vs. the world on women issues thing.

[Menorah]

I agree with taon, but would qualify that I'm not even convinced that anyone is responding incorrectly in protesting the public breach in tznius, even though the secular media made uncorraborated accusations against unnnamed unidentified "Chareidim" of spitting. It would seem to me that spitting someone, if it in fact ever occurred, would be an incorrect response if it in fact ever even occurred. I doubt it happened though.

In any event, the enemies of the Torah community in collaboration with the media and politicians made it into a big deal that it wasn't. Even the motzei Shabbos protest with the concentration camp uniforms there was nothing untoward about, and in fact was an almost correct analogy with how the Torah community in EY is treated today by the authorities. Which is why I was wondering what Rav Shapiro makes of the entire situation (and responded to his request for clarification from me above.)

[Rabbi Shapiro]

First, please understand that the only reason this issue has become so talked about is because of its media coverage. We would be wise not to subject ourselves to talking about something just because the media talks about it. Part of how the media influence people is not just by telling people what they should think of certain things, but also what things they should be thinking about. We would do well not to allow ourselves to be manipulated like that. (And because the whole thing is a synthetically hyped circus by the media and bloggers, the public's interest in it will disappear as soon as the these people find something else to write about.)

There is very little to say here.

Do the protesters against the new Modern Orthodox girls school in Beit Shemesh have valid grounds for protesting?

How could I possibly answer such a question without hearing from both sides of the dispute and the corroborating evidence? All I know is what is reported in the press, whose reliability is insufficient to form an opinion on. It is foolish to judge a dispute between two parties by what is reported in the newspapers. We could save Bais Dins - and secular courts - a lot of time and money if all we needed to do was give the jury a laptop and some newspapers and ask them for a verdict.

Is their manner of protesting acceptable? Specifically, verbally protesting apparently immodestly dressed mothers by calling them names?

No. Of course not.

There was also a recent media allegation that one unidentified protester spit at a young girl. I saw nothing corraborating this claim, yet at least one of the major American frum newspapers accepted this as a fact. Do you believe it occurred, and if it did it was wrong?

I have no idea whether it occurred. Again, I don't know anything more than anyone else about this. If it did occur, of course it was wrong. 

There has been a media frenzy attacking frum Yidden based on the aforementioned allegations. This frenzy has even carried over to ostensibly frum media outlets. What do you make of this media reaction, and are any frum Yidden at fault for this?

The media does what the media does - namely, whatever it takes to get readers. Why does any of this surprise you?

As far as frum Yidden in general being blamed - did you do anything wrong? Do you have anything to do with the people who are doing something wrong? Do you act like them? Do you have the ability to do something to stop them? So how in the world could you be blamed for the actions of someone else?

If people are trying to convince you that somehow you are associated with a certain group, and that you and they are in the same “camp” don’t ever allow anyone to tell you who you are or what you stand for. Only you determine that – not others who have an agenda.

From experience, I will tell you what invariably happens in such cases. A small group of religious people are publicized as doing something bad.

Those who do not like religion in general will say, “Look at what religion does. Religion causes people to be like this.”

Others, who may like some other religion but not Judaism (or perhaps Jews), will say, “Look at what Judaism does to people. Judaism causes people to be like that.”

Others, who may like some other "types" of Judaism but not Orthodox Judaism in general will say, “Look at what Orthodox Judaism does. Orthodox Judaism causes people to be like that.”

Others, who may like some "types" of Orthodox Judaism but not the traditional type will say, "Being Chareidi causes people do be like that.”

Each one of these groups will point to their right and say “It’s not me, it’s they who are responsible for this. Because those people are like them. My people have got nothing to do with it.”

Of course, the only people responsible for what any individual does is the individual himself, as well as anyone who encouraged him to do it, and anyone who could prevent him from doing it and does not.

Presumably, you, like most everyone else in the world, are not in any of those categories. Don’t ever allow yourself to be told by others who you are associated with or what “group” you belong to or what your identity is. You decide that. Not anti-semites with agendas. Jewish or otherwise.

There are reasons people do this. Anti-Semitism is one of them of course, and remember what the Gemora tells us about Anti-Semitism:
גדולה שנאה ששונאין עמי הארץ לתלמיד חכם יותר משנאה ששונאין עובדי כוכבים את ישראל

Blaming Chasidim, or Chareidim (sic) or anti-Zionists or people with short hair and big hats and long payos (but not below the chin) for what a small group of people do is like blaming the Arizal for Philip Berg's Kabblah Center. Don’t be silly.

But be aware that there are people who would like to tie you to those crazies for their own purposes. You (and I) have nothing more to do with them than any other Jews in the world. If someone would say that all Jews have an obligation to stop these guys, and not only these guys but all Jews who do bad things, that is true. And if someone wanted to say that if a Jew even overseas sins, all Jews have a share in it as well, that is true too, on a certain level.

It is likely that some of the people creating these "categories" of Jews, these so-called "camps" or "communities" based on their own arbitrary criteria and associating everyone who shares said criteria, really believe that there is some kind of connection between the people in their imaginary "camps," and that the camp members are accountable to protest the deviant acts of the others, as opposed to those outside these "camps" who are not responsible to voice any protests. That's a very confused version of Klall Yisroel, as well as the rules of Tochachah.

But there are also people who, for their own reasons, would like to tie you to the crazies. Doing so makes them feel less insecure about their own lifestyle and gives them an excuse for being the way they are, as opposed to the way you are. They want there to be a connection between people like you and the crazies, because that way they can say to themselves and to their children when they ask “Why aren’t we more frum like those people are?” they can say that “We are not like those people because their Hashkafos cause bad behavior.”

The anti-Orthodox can say “We are not Orthodox because Orthodoxy causes bad behavior.”

The anti-Judaism people can say, ‘We don’t like Judaism because Judaism causes bad behavior.”

The anti-religious can say “We are not religious because religion causes bad behavior.” (That's what that expensive .pdf in the link says.)

You get the idea. It happens all the time. A small group of people will be publicized as doing something bad. Everyone then points to their right and says "See what THEIR ideology causes?"

So be aware that some people who are less frum than you will be looking to tie you to the crazies in order to make themselves feel less guilty about who they are.

But don’t ever, ever, let anyone dictate to you who you are, or who you are associated with. Nobody determines your identity or your affiliations except you.

Did you do anything wrong? Do you have anything to do with the people who are doing something wrong? Do you act like them? Do you have the ability to do something to stop them? "No" to all of the above? So how in the world could you be blamed for the actions of someone else?

Kol Yisroel Areivim Zeh LaZeh. That means everyone. Not just those who the media decide are Areivim.