13 replies to this topic

[mamash]

I watched the Internet Asifa last night, and walked away kind of confused. In truth, I don't really understand what the purpose was. Was the point to give definitive psak halacha as to the internet? If so, the major posek that spoke was HaRav Wosner shlitah via telephone, and unfortunately I couldn't understand most of what he said because it was in yiddish (I think a lot of people are in the same position as myself regarding the language barrier). Was the point to bring awareness that there is a problem? I think we all know that, do we really need to gather in a baseball stadium to be mefarsem the problem? Can't rabbonim speak about it in their shuls (in a language their balebatim understand) and accomplish the same awareness? Was a gathering of this many frum Jews in one place in and of itself the goal?

Also, I think part of this boils down to another question discussed on this site, that is, who are the gedolei yisroel? How do I know that the people speaking last night and offering advice are gedolim? Honestly, I'm very unfamiliar with a bunch of the speakers and even if I wanted to follow their advice, I couldn't understand a lot of them.

What should I have walked away with?

[Rabbi Shapiro]

Here are your key takeaways:

1) The problems created by the internet are not just the shmutz, loshon horah, kefirah and shekorim. The effortlessness and immediacy with which so much is accessed gets us used to processing and analyzing information without effort or patience, which is quite detrimental to our thinking process, in particular when learning Torah, where the very opposite of effortless,impatient analysis is required. Thus, even without any "bad" sites, surfing the internet regularly is harmful.

2) The proper reaction to the internet is not to treat it as an intrinsically innocuous "tool" that can be used constructively or destructively, like a car or telephone, for instance, where the response would be to learn how to use it constructively. Instead, the proper response to to avoid its influence as much as possible.

3) The only way to implement #2 - avoiding the influence of the internet as much as possible - is to avoid the internet as much as possible. If avoiding it completely is not a workable option (due to Parnasa reasons, for example), then filtering is required.

4) Number 3 above is Halachicly required. It is not merely sage advice.

5) The importance of us collectively fulfilling this has been sorely underestimated. The internet has not merely been a mass pitfall for shmutz, marital problems, Kefirah and the like, but it has actually changed the face of Klall Yisroel. It is a problem on par with Haskalah or Zionism. As such, we are obligated to employ a tremendous amount of energy and Mesiras Nefesh to stem the tide. We also have to do what it takes to enforce #2 above. Great sacrifice is needed from individuals as well as from our community as a whole to accomplish this, but we must rise to the occasion, for there is too much at stake.

6) As far as the reason for the mass gathering, it was to impress upon everyone how critical the issue is. Your rabbi speaks in Shul every week about various important issues. This issue is not in the same category and they wanted to show that. If rachmana latzlan the government would make a Gezeiras Haman to destroy all Jews in the country, and they called such an Asifa, nobody would ask why don't we just let the rabbis talk about it in the Shuls. They would get someone like Rav Wosner to give a psak regarding how to react, they would get a top-notch speaker like Rabbi Wachsman to give Divrei Chizuk, they would say Tehillim, and they would be Mekabel Ol Malchus Shamayim. They wanted to give this issue that kind of import. They wanted to tell us that, together, we are about to embark on a war that has already caused untold casualties.

PS - To that last point, I'd like to add the following from the Sefer Tiferes Shmuel, by the Alexander Rebbe, Rav Shmuel Zvi Danziger ZTL:

ספר תפארת שמואל - פרשת קדושים

דבר אל כל עדת בנ"י לאמר קדושים תהיו, הזוה"ק הק' קדושים היו לא כתוב אלא תהיה, תהיו ודאי, ואלי הענין היא ע"פ דברי עבודת ה' עיקר עבודה היא להיות בטל ומבוטל להכלל ישראל, וזהו עיקר טהרת ישראל כאז"ל (ב"ר פ' ויחי) האספו הטהרו ובזמן שישראל נאספים ומחוברים יחד אז המה מחוברים בשורשם ולא יכשרו לקבלת טומאה ח"ו, משא"כ בתלושים, ואף מי שפגם כ"כ ואין לו עוד שום חיות בקדושה רק מה שבשם ישראל מכונה עכ"ז כאשר מבטל עצמו להכלל ישראל ומתחבר עמהם והולך למקום שנאספים ישראל, ויקר בעיניו אסיפת ישראל זוכה לעזר ה', וכמ"ש בס' זקן אהרן על הכתוב ישראל בטח בד' עזרם ומגנם הוא היינו בשמך ישראל בלבד שעוד נקרא שמך ישראל בזה תוכל לבטוח בד' כי תמנה בכלל ישראל ויהיה לך לעזר ומגן, וזהו שמסיים בלשון רבים עזרם ומגנם ומתחיל בלשון יחיד, כי אסיפת כלל ישראל מטהר וזהו הפירוש דבר אל כל עד"ת בנ"י, יהיה מי שיהיה, אם יבטל ויחבר וילך לעדת בנ"י למקום שנאספים ישראל ויהיה יקר בעיניו אסיפה זו הש"י מבטיח לו על העתיד קדושים תהיו, הכלל ישראל יועיל לו שהסוף יהיה שיהיה קדוש, היינו שלא יאסוף מן העולם בלא תשובה, והראי' לזה שכח קדושת ישראל מועיל לטהרה כי קדוש אני, וכשחז"ל קדושתי למעלה מקדושתכם, רצ"ל קדושת הש"י היא מקדושתכם, רצ"ל מקדושת ישראל, כאז"ל (מד"ר איכה) ישראל מוסיפים כח בפמליא של מעלה, ומה שקדושת ישראל מועיל להוסיף כח וקדושה לכב"י מכש"כ שיכולים להוסיף כח ואומץ וקדושה בלב יאש ישראל, וכמ"ש המגיד מטריסק לכ"ק אאמו"ר זצללה"ה זי"ע, וזש"כ הזוה"ק כד מטאן חברייא לפרשתא דא הוו חדאין, החברייא קדישא בגודל שפלותם מקוצר עבודתם בעבודת הקודש כד הוו טאן לפרשתא דא שמוכח מזה שהחברייא קדישא מועיל להוסיף כח טהרה וקדושת לאיש ישראל והש"י מבטיח לו קדושים תהיו הוו חדאן, כי זה היה עיקר עבודתם וחפצם בדרכי ה' להיות קודש בקודש, היוצא מדברינו אלה שעצה נכונה לקיים מ"ע קדושים תהיה היא לבטל א"ע בהכלל ישראל בביטול גמור ולהתחבר עמהם וזהו עיקר החסידות בזמנינו, שעי"ז אנו בטוחים בהבטחת השי"ת שנהיה קדושים:

[achasshoalti]

Here is one example of the positive effect of such a mass gathering

Rubber Ducky Filter Experiences Toll Free Number Glitch Following Massive Citifield Response

Thursday May 24, 2012 3:10 PM

[/left]

As one can imagine following the massive Citifield Asifa, filter companies are being inundated with calls. Frum Web Inc, which produces the Rubber Ducky filter, a popular secure and inexpensive software filter, has also been receiving many calls to the extent that Frum Web spokesman Chaim Walter says “The amount of simultaneous calls we received in such a short time has caused our IVR phone system to go a bit haywire which resulted in knocking out our main toll free number.

[Menorah]

What does the Rov think of the "frum" news websites? There are several of them that have constant news updates throughout the day on events occurring in the frum community. They seem to have a wide readership, yet in my opinion they stoop very low (with loshon hora, letzanus, etc.) in what they report and how they report it. And that's just the news they directly post. The comments that they approve from readers (which are all pre-moderated) contain some of the worst loshon hora, bizoyon talmidei chachamim and many many other issurim.

And this is not even discussing the "Jewish" blogs, which contain much much worse than all that.

Shouldn't Rabbonim make a strong public rebuke against these sites and admonish their flock to strictly avoid reading them?

[Rabbi Shapiro]

What does the Rov think of the "frum" news websites? There are several of them that have constant news updates throughout the day on events occurring in the frum community. They seem to have a wide readership, yet in my opinion they stoop very low (with loshon hora, letzanus, etc.) in what they report and how they report it. And that's just the news they directly post. The comments that they approve from readers (which are all pre-moderated) contain some of the worst loshon hora, bizoyon talmidei chachamim and many many other issurim.

And this is not even discussing the "Jewish" blogs, which contain much much worse than all that.

Shouldn't Rabbonim make a strong public rebuke against these sites and admonish their flock to strictly avoid reading them?

Nobody should read any site - or magazine or newspaper - that professes a Jewish perspective on anything unless the site has a Rav Hamachshir, which is almost impossible. You wouldn't eat a cookie unless you knew it was kosher and so, מכל משמר נצור לבך - of all the things you protect, protect your mind most of all. You should not absorb information if you suspect it may not be kosher.

The media has influence. Just ask any politician. Or advertiser. And we Jews are enjoined to protect our minds the way pianists protect their fingers and singers protect their voices. מכל משמר נצור לבך - כי ממנו תוצאות חיים - our opinions, what we think, what we believe, what we know - that is our life. It is absurd to allow our souls to be influenced by dubious sources.

This is explained in this shiur.

[matan]

It sounds a little intellectually dishonest. If someone is certain that yidishkeit is the truth, then why should we be afraid of outside information?

[achdus]

unless the site has a Rav Hamachshir

the psak of rav vozner was that even that we are not allowed.

[Rabbi Shapiro]

the psak of rav vozner was that even that we are not allowed.

We are talking about two different things. He said that in the home all internet is prohibited, and workplace computers (if you need internet for work) need a filter. I'm talking about what needs to be filtered. I'm not saying to have the internet for these sites. I'm saying if you have it legitimately, you should even filter out Jewish sites with no Hechsher.

And not only sites. You should not read Hashkafa or Halachah unless it has somebody with enough authority to take responsibility for content. If you would not put a cookie in your mouth without someone of sufficient stature to Pasken on the cookies, you should not take Hashkafos into your head without a Hechsher as well. מכל משמר נצור לבך

[shaya]

It sounds a little intellectually dishonest. If someone is certain that yidishkeit is the truth, then why should we be afraid of outside information?

1)why read outside hashkafa stuff if you know the truth in the first place?
2) who you saying is intellectually dishonest? the person reading it or the rabonim who say you shouldnt read it?
3) its dishonest to say that people dont get influenced by what they read.
4) there is an isur to read divrei kefirah, even if you are sure with your yiddishkeit.
5) what yiddishkeit you referring to?

[taon]

They can't be read because of how easily people get influenced by what they read/see etc. Same reason any information is banned by anyone, good or bad. Would you let kids watch racist propaganda films because you're not afraid of it being true?

[Moderator #3]

Matan,

Please refer to the General Posting Guidelines. JWQ is not a giant opinion poll where everyone just lists their opinions. Your last post was not posted because it contained nothing but a statement of what you "think is wise," in terms of how we all should behave regarding the internet. It has no corroboration, reasoning, or additional information. It is just an expression of the opinion of an anonymous person with no known credentials or expertise in the area under discussion.

Your post therefore is off topic, because the topic is not "Matan's Opinion On How Klall Yisroel Should Behave." If you have something more than that to contribute, please do. But if you don't explain why you think something is wise, or why it should matter to others that Matan thinks it is wise, your post does not contribute to the discussion. Especially when an anonymous, random person declares, without any reason given, and without any credentials provided, that he "thinks it is wise" to do the opposite of what a גדול הדור ruled, and nothing more than that, the declaration is not useful or informative in any way.

Also, please note that when you say we should have the internet you are making a Psak Halachah. It would be wrong for us to publicize Psakim from random anonymous people, especially with no supporting sources.

You should leave the Paskening to the Poskim.

[Rabbi Shapiro]

It sounds a little intellectually dishonest. If someone is certain that yidishkeit is the truth, then why should we be afraid of outside information?

1) It's not information that's the problem. It's misinformation.

2) There is no such thing as "outside" information. Information is simply a description of reality (i.e. "facts"). The adjective "outside" does not accommodate that. It's like saying "outside mathematical formulas." I am not sure what one would mean to imply by such a phrase. So I do not really know what you mean by "outside information." Can you please explain?

3) What does yiddishkeit being the truth have to do with anything? First of all, shmutz, loshon horah, slander, cynicism, and all sorts of destructive material have nothing to do with yiddishkeit being the truth, not to mention the social problems people get into. More importantly, though, as Shaya pointed out, people are influenced by what they read and see. As I said, ask any politician about the power of the media, or any advertiser. Tell me: If you were on trial, and your life was at stake, would you allow someone on the jury if he read about your case on blogs? Why would you be afraid of outside information? What about someone who you know was told lies about your case? Would you allow him on the jury? What if the person was a real intellectually honest and open minded individual? Would you not disqualify him regardless?

We Jews are enjoined to protect our mind not from information but from misinformation - from misrepresentations, lies, exaggerations, and partial-truths, all of which abound on the internet en masse.

What is intellectually dishonest here is to make believe the media - in our case, the internet - has no influence.

[matan]

Mod 3- I want to apologize for my post. My point was that instead of banning the internet or having a blind requirement for filters, we should look to understand why people use the internet the way they do, and to teach and educate children how to use the internet safely and responsibly. I am not pushing my opinions on anyone, i am just making a suggestion.

[Rabbi Shapiro]

Mod 3- I want to apologize for my post. My point was that instead of banning the internet or having a blind requirement for filters, we should look to understand why people use the internet the way they do, and to teach and educate children how to use the internet safely and responsibly. I am not pushing my opinions on anyone, i am just making a suggestion.

No need to apologize but the issue is not your pushing your opinions on anybody but rather the fact that the site is not a repository of every random person's opinions about how to run Klall yisrael, especially when they make statements like they think it would be "wiser" to follow their own suggestions that that of the Gedolai Hador (you can have any opinion on anything you want, nobody is stopping you, but this site is not for random opinions), not to mention that your suggestion is deciding an halachic question ( = Is the Internet permitted halachicly) and why would we want to post halachic rulings of random anonymous people?